Pre-Proto-Indo-European?

[Truth Seeker]

What do you think about this chart?

[Liffrea]

If I’m reading it right it seems similar to the theory developed by the Iranian Dr Kaveh Farrokh who posits an original Anatolian homeland for the IE and an acculturated Ukrainian steppe. That chart seems to differ by having the IE move into the Balkans (similar up to now) but differs in a migration into the Ukraine from the Balkans……then again it might be the same, I haven’t got his book in front of me right now.

Where are the Slavic languages? Shouldn’t they be on the same branch as Germanic?

[Lulletje Rozewater]

What do you think about this chart?

Is about right,but the Aryan worshipers would disagree with you.

[Tabiti]

Not sure which should be first - Balkans or Old Steppe I.E. There are various theories about ancient Balkan population (but not Hellenics) being autochthonous or "alien" from the Black Sea steppes.

[Agrippa]

In my opinion there were no real Indoeuropeans outside of Europe, but Indoeuropeans came into existence by the meeting of Anatolian farmers with local Mesolithic groups in South Eastern or Eastern Europe.

The only thing which remains a mystery who brougth more into the language and biologically, was it first in South Eastern Europe or Eastern Europe. Thats not clear yet.

Most likely the ancestral Anatolian group was related to the people of Çatalhöyük and related groups, which were racially mostly robust Mediterranoids and fit in racially too.

Before they entered there existed only Pre-Proto-Indo-Europeans. I'd say Proto-Indo-Europeans came into existence in Europe and not outside of it, Hittites and the like were Indo-Europeans marching into Anatolia, operating and spreading their ethnocultural identiy via elite dominance, no local continuity.

[Osweo]

In my opinion there were no real Indoeuropeans outside of Europe, but Indoeuropeans came into existence by the meeting of Anatolian farmers with local Mesolithic groups in South Eastern or Eastern Europe.

Yep, but these 'Anatolians' had been in Europe for about two millennia before this fateful encounter, and had probably already assimilated a lot with the 'natives'.

I'd say Proto-Indo-Europeans came into existence in Europe and not outside of it, Hittites and the like were Indo-Europeans marching into Anatolia, operating and spreading their ethnocultural identiy via elite dominance, no local continuity.

Definitely. The earlier Hatti language was even still spoken in the Hittite Kingdom. Hittites called themselves Kanesans or something like that, and retained traditions of migrating into the region.

There is NO good reason to suppose pre-Anatolian PIE was spoken outside Europe. I've even seen attempts to link Anatolian with the Neolithic Black Sea Varna Culture (of Bulgaria). ANatolian shows some very archaic traits, and it is reasonable to suppose it left the homeland earliest.

[Agrippa]

Agreed on every word!

This was a long time process in Europe taking place and both parts melted into a new form = Indo-European.

The earlier Hatti language was even still spoken in the Hittite Kingdom. Hittites called themselves Kanesans or something like that, and retained traditions of migrating into the region.

I knew that and would like to add that the people of region can change racially or being different, especially at that time, from one clan to another. Even in the early Neolithic times we encounter different types and later the Hatti had a stronger Armenoid tendency already, which wasn't present before or at least not significant.

What makes this story difficult however is, that those Hatti people are closer related to Caucasian people it seems, like the Hurrians and Urartians too. All being later divided among Indoeuropeans and Semites, later even Turkic groups.

[Osweo]

Agreed on every word!

What makes this story difficult however is, that those Hatti people are closer related to Caucasian people it seems, like the Hurrians and Urartians too.

Difficult? In what way?

It seems that even Knossos and Korinthos are likely to be related to NE Caucasian, from reading the more daring long-term historical-linguists.

Agrippa, this is as good a place to ask as any; how do you see the proposed Semitic/Afro-Asiatic borrowings in PIE? 'Wanderwords'? Words inherited from an ancient language related to neither? Elusive Caucasianisms again? Their presence in the mystical realm is intriguing - 'seven' and 'star'...

[Agrippa]

Difficult? In what way?

Because they could have expanded from the Caucasian core areas into Anatolia and that way eliminating a possible Pre-Proto-Indo-European or Proto-Indo-European people there.

It seems that even Knossos and Korinthos are likely to be related to NE Caucasian, from reading the more daring long-term historical-linguists.

Well, I don't follow that "regularly", are there any news for Linear A? Because as long as that isn't fixed, we can speculate about a lot of things.

Agrippa, this is as good a place to ask as any; how do you see the proposed Semitic/Afro-Asiatic borrowings in PIE? 'Wanderwords'? Words inherited from an ancient language related to neither? Elusive Caucasianisms again? Their presence in the mystical realm is intriguing - 'seven' and 'star'...

Honestly, I have no idea at all. But currently I think about a relation of Asian Afro-Asiatics and Pre-Proto-Indo-European, which would be not that far fetched if considering the colonists had significant J2 and came from a region which was at that time already Afro-Asiatic to a large degree we can assume...

Probably the Indo-Europeans adopted more from the language of the local Mesolithic people than the newcomers, but some words survived.

Are those words in a specific category more often? You know where I want to head to, are they f.e. related to certain activities and tools more often? Because if they would go for agriculture, it's almost certain.

As for the "Caucasianism", that must be recognisable in a comparison with the Caucasians I guess.

But really, I can just guess around, but this one had a reasonable approach:

http://homer.members.pgv.at/INDOEURO/afroasia.htm

[Cail]

It's kinda strange, but accurate in a way. Rename "Old Europe" to "Western IE" and "Old Steppe" to "Eastern IE", move Greek to "Eastern IE", move Scythian to Iranian branch, add Balto-Slavic alongside the Germanic one, and it's about that. But very inprecise. I've posted a more accurate tree of IE languages - this one:

, in this thread - http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12410.

The idea of "Pre-Proto-IE" or, like it is more often called, "Indo-Hittite" is quite widely accepted in modern linguistics.