Neo-Danubian, Ladogan, etc.

[Wotan88]

Hi after long break from posting here!

I have a question about this whole Neo-Danubian issue. I've read somewhere (I think even on this forum) different opinions about that. Some people argued that C. S. Coon's concept of Neo-Danubian race is wrong, and these people belong to other race.
Could someone elaborate on this issue? Is N-D concept viable? If not, how these people would be classified?
I highly doubt that these people are primarily East Baltics. I live in Poland, according to Coon many Poles belong to N-D in his classification, but I rarely see people with East Baltic features. Nordic, Dinaric and Alpine traits are much more common, at least in my region.

[kwp_wp]

I also doubt in legitimacy of separating the so called Neo-Danubian sub-race. I think all what we need are these 5 main components: Nordid, Baltid, Alpine, Dinarid and Med and the rest is variety of mixtures between them.
As for the relatively small percentage of Baltid traits among Poles I have to say that I got opposite opinion. At least from my personal experience and observation I believe there is significant impact of Baltid elements in Poles appearance.

[Agrippa]

In my opinion Coon was wrong for many reasons, one of the reasons was he noted racial change, but was still inclined to believe that most populations show a great continuity.

Thats not necessarily true however and the Osteuropid variants of today are rather the result of a process with refer to as Baltisation, mostly based on archaic Cromagnoids of the North East, some of which (Eastbaltid + Lappoid) being Mongoloid influenced, rest mostly changed due to different selective pressures, the new way of life and climate.

His whole idea of the "Danubians" prehistorically and historically is questionable without great significance for the real racial element of the East, the Osteuropids (Westbaltid, Baltid proper and Eastbaltid).

[Wotan88]

As for the relatively small percentage of Baltid traits among Poles I have to say that I got opposite opinion. At least from my personal experience and observation I believe there is significant impact of Baltid elements in Poles appearance.

Well, it's dependant, on which typology you base your views. "Baltid" in Coon's typology is very variable, but for example some German anthropologists tried to denigrate Baltic people, showing very extreme cases of East Baltic (quasi mongoloid) as "examples of Baltic race" (see Gunther's books). I mean, people like that:




These people look somewhat mongoloid. I don't see such people living in Poland at all. If you - by Baltid - mean people like these:




Then I agree that you can sometimes see people of such phenotype here. But they are not predominant racial type, just one of the few.

[Pallantides]

These people look somewhat mongoloid. I don't see such people living in Poland at all.

Well the guy is a Swede and the girl is south Sámi(judging by her gákti)

[Wotan88]

Oh, and another question for you, kwp_wp...

I think all what we need are these 5 main components: Nordid, Baltid, Alpine, Dinarid and Med and the rest is variety of mixtures between them.

But how - using these 5 main racial trends - would you classify people like Borrebys? I mean - somehow resembling Alpines in general way of looking, but lighter pigmented and non-Baltid (in western Europe). Do you perceive them as some sort of intermediate form between Nordid and Alpine?

[Agrippa]

Most of Guenthers "pure Ostbaltische" are in my scheme Mongoliform/Mongoloid influenced Eastbaltids or Lappoids, some even rather straightforward Mongolid mixed.

He took rather extreme examples for both Mediterranid and Osteuropid, such which are really borderline for Europe and not common.

But for a better understanding this thread of mine might be helpful:
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11365

[Wotan88]

Most of Guenthers "pure Ostbaltische" are in my scheme Mongoliform/Mongoloid influenced Eastbaltids or Lappoids, some even rather straightforward Mongolid mixed.

He took rather extreme examples for both Mediterranid and Osteuropid, such which are really borderline for Europe and not common.

Yeah, I have also noticed that. That's why I asked kwp_wp to confirm, which system he uses. His system seem to overlap largely with Gunther's, so I asked for clarification.

But for a better understanding this thread of mine might be helpful:
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11365

Thanks, I will surely read that!

[Pallantides]

I think Gunther had an agenda.




I like his description of the mental charectaristics of the east baltic race

His boisterousness may turn to a blind lust of destruction. 'Nihilism' lies deep in the East Baltic soul.

[kwp_wp]

But how - using these 5 main racial trends - would you classify people like Borrebys? I mean - somehow resembling Alpines in general way of looking, but lighter pigmented and non-Baltid (in western Europe). Do you perceive them as some sort of intermediate form between Nordid and Alpine?

I like to have it simple
Oh, I forgot to add that I'm not an expert in any case...
I also didn't mention sixth element which plays main role in European typology: CM - Upper Paleolithic survivors. So with CM influence you will get Borreby, Brunn, Dalo-Faelid etc
But as I said I might be wrong...