Neo-Danubian, Ladogan, etc.

[Wotan88]

I like to have it simple

Me too, my Polish friend.

Oh, I forgot to add that I'm not an expert in any case...

Me neither.

I also didn't mention sixth element which plays main role in European typology: CM - Upper Paleolithic survivors. So with CM influence you will get Borreby, Brunn, Dalo-Faelid etc

Yes, after adding sixth element, this system makes sense. But aren't Baltids also derived from CMs?

[Agrippa]

Yes, after adding sixth element, this system makes sense. But aren't Baltids also derived from CMs?

Yes they are, but in the end we are all derived from Australid and Sanid like racial forms, so to say it simple, they are no longer in the same category as Dalofaelids are, even if their ancestral form was more similar to the basic Cromagnid stock, but changed over time to something new, with just certain Cromagnoid characteristics being left, many changed.

Taurids too seem to stem from leptodolichomorphic forms for the most part (robust Medtiterranid, Nordoid, Iranoid), but are different now too and obviously no longer of that kind, only related with certain traits...

Alpinisation being a process as well, most likely from darker Cromagnoids, in the West especially along the lines Palaeatlantid - Berid - Alpinid. This can be seen in North Africa too were certain Alpinoid forms derived from Cromagnoid Berberids which became reduced.

Same for Nordoids which once were darker pigmented, probably more Mediterranoid like, but now they are depigmented so in a different category etc., etc...

15.000 years ago many of todays racial forms didn't exist or at least didn't exist in their modern form as a constitiutive part of any larger population...

[Wotan88]

Okay, I understand now. I haven't thought that evolution is happening so quickly (relatively).

Anyway - how would you classify those people, who fall into category of "Neo-Danubians" in Coon's system? Are they variable, or they represent for example Baltid race?

[Agrippa]

They are pred. Osteuropid/Baltid to Eastbaltid so to say.

[Aviane]

Poles in lots of ways kind of remind me sometimes of Central and Eastern Europeans rolled into one.

[Wotan88]

Okay, so one more question.

I often hear about some eastern Europeans to have some mongoloid (lappoid?) influence like very prominent cheekbones and so on. My question is - does it apply to Baltids (or Osteuropids as some of you call it) in general or maybe only to eastern branches of Baltids like East Baltids?

From my own experience of "looking at people" I see such traits only in East Baltics, while "normal" Baltics seem to not have such influences.

Thank you in advance.

[Eldritch]

'Nihilism' lies deep in the East Baltic soul.

That sentence is rescued from complete falsehood by the quotation marks.

There's some truth in the description, although not much. Given how lenghty and flowery the descriptions are, he's bound to get something right.

[Agrippa]

Okay, so one more question.

I often hear about some eastern Europeans to have some mongoloid (lappoid?) influence like very prominent cheekbones and so on. My question is - does it apply to Baltids (or Osteuropids as some of you call it) in general or maybe only to eastern branches of Baltids like East Baltids?

From my own experience of "looking at people" I see such traits only in East Baltics, while "normal" Baltics seem to not have such influences.

Thank you in advance.

Well, it is a question of definition, but thats exactly why I carefully distinguish between Westbaltid (brachycephalised Cromagnoids), Baltid (reduced-infantilised Cromagnoids) and those with the Mongoloid tendencies = Eastbaltid.

"Normal" Westbaltid and Baltid variants have usually no real Mongoloid or even significant Mongoliform influence.

[Wotan88]

Sorry for refreashing thread but I have another question related to that topic and I don't want to spam with new threads.

Coon believed that Nordids emerged after mixing between 2 Proto-Nordid types that were: Danubian and Corded. But most of you believe that he was wrong about this whole "Neo-Danubian" thing and that such race doesn't exist. But if Neo-Danubian doesn't exist, does it mean that "Danubian" Proto-Nordid race hasn't existed?

In short: even if his Neo-Danubian concept is wrong, then is his concept of "Danubian Proto-Nordid race" true? Thanks in advance.

[Agrippa]

Sorry for refreashing thread but I have another question related to that topic and I don't want to spam with new threads.

Coon believed that Nordids emerged after mixing between 2 Proto-Nordid types that were: Danubian and Corded. But most of you believe that he was wrong about this whole "Neo-Danubian" thing and that such race doesn't exist. But if Neo-Danubian doesn't exist, does it mean that "Danubian" Proto-Nordid race hasn't existed?

In short: even if his Neo-Danubian concept is wrong, then is his concept of "Danubian Proto-Nordid race" true? Thanks in advance.

First of all we must clear up some misunderstandings of Coon. He already recognised that racial forms can develop and change, yet he still underestimated that capability of all human racial forms, so his principle of Dinarisation too is wrong, because he largely neglects or at least underestimates the importance of selection in the process.

Now if we deal with "Danubians", what people are we talking about?

The term Danubian culture was coined by the Australian archaeologist Vere Gordon Childe to describe the first agrarian society in central and eastern Europe. It covers the Linear Pottery culture (Linearbandkeramik, LBK), stroked pottery and Rössen cultures.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danubian_culture

Now the LBK-people themselves were NOT that homogenous and to describe them as some sort of gracile Mediterranoids is wrong too. In fact, they had various elements among them and the Northern group was especially characterised by a variant which was basically robust Mediterranid and/or Nordoid or something in between, but living under horrible conditions, having various signs of malnutrition, diseases and inbreeding.

Some people looked simply at their size and concluded, because they were shorter, that they might have been, even the Northern group, rather "gracile Mediterranoids", but if looking carefully at their traits, what some later authors did, one can see that they were actually often as robust or individually even more robust than most later populations! They just showed signs of negative environmental influences, similar to Greenlanders and Icelanders in the cold-famine period f.e.

Many variants of them were actually quite close to the Corded Ware people later, which showed much less of the negative deviations by this deprivation.

Corded people seem to be, in my opinion, the result of a breeding-selection process working on people related to the (more Northern) LBK-group to a large degree, in which the negative deviations by deprivation were drastically reduced - they changed from farmer-herder to herder-warrior and herder-farmer warriors - positive selection and living standards increased, which led to a decrease of primitive traits and a fairly homogenous core group in the future Corded Ware core area.

So if somebody is talking about Danubian-Corded mixtures, that's all quite relative and to make up of some rather deviating examples of the Danubian culture bearers an own type, trying to sort it out and finally presenting rather absurd living examples, just makes little sense.

Especially if there is almost no way how a cross of Danubian-Corded could produce Hallstatt/classic Skandonordid.

But he was right insofar, as among the Danubians elements were present which could be described as robust Mediterranid or Proto-Nordoid and were most likely involved in the formation of the Nordid racial type.

His exact description and over-estimated distinction between "Danubian and Corded" was flawed, but he was right in seeing among these prehistoric Danubian people ancestral forms to at least a certain portion of todays Nordoid and Atlanto-Pontid variants.

Coon himself wrote, for his "Danubian" Plate 28:

The reason for qualification on this score is that not enough Danubian crania have been found and described to make this point certain.

So his "Danubian type" was based on a few, probably untypical crania and he concluded from these a lot, I might say too much, especially since he didn't recognise the environmental aspect, described above.

His living examples look mostly like Atlanto-Pontid + Alpinoid...

Many years later, a German anthropologist (Bach) looked more carefully especially at the Northern LBK-crania and I can definitely say that among these were robust Mediterranid - Nordoid skulls which could be seen as typically Corded or at least Nordoid too and are not really like the examples Coon presented for his "Danubian type", though such deviating forms existed too, were largely bred out and cannot be considered ancestral to the Nordid racial type in the narrower sense.

Here some examples from Adelheid Bach's work (2nd was a female):


You can find more about this topic in this thread, in which we discussed about whether a Nordid type exists, how he can be defined, what his origins were etc:
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/sho...d.php?p=152217