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Thread: Admixture and genetic relationships of Mexican Mestizos regarding Lat America and Caribbean

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    Quote Originally Posted by Han Cholo View Post
    put a picture of him next to me and just ask, Who looks more Chichimeca?(most people cant tell the difference between Chichimeca and Mayan or tolteca) and see what happens, I dare you

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    Quote Originally Posted by nicalandia View Post
    put a picture of him next to me and just ask, Who looks more Chichimeca?(most people cant tell the difference between Chichimeca and Mayan or tolteca) and see what happens, I dare you
    Acaso me viste cara de anthro-retrasado como para que me importase hacer semejante estupidez? Anda a autistear a otro lado cerote.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RMuller View Post
    Because thats the truth. Certain regions of Mexico vary in European and Amerindian %. This is an athrolopology forum.

    My Chichimecas ancestors is what true Native Americans look like. 100% warriors
    It looks that for that guy to be happy, you have to say that you're 100% amerindian, and Mexico is 100% Amerindian, and renegade from the European blood that you have, and deny any kind of European contribution in the Mexican genome. If you don't do so, you hate your amerindian side.
    Last edited by alnortedelsur; 04-11-2015 at 02:24 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nicalandia View Post
    The thing is.. I look more Chichimeca than you, so eat your heart out
    Chichimecas don't look Zamboid like you. Eat your heart out. Your Miskito ancestors were raped by niggas.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RMuller View Post
    I do embrace my Amerindian ancestors.
    I have Chichimeca Jonaz blood and they were never Conquered by the Spaniards.
    Impossible.

    Quote Originally Posted by RMuller View Post
    They are Pueblids and can look like Silvids
    And Pueblids were not conquered perhaps?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cristiano viejo View Post
    Impossible.
    The Chichimeca War (1550–1590) was a military conflict waged between Spanish colonizers and their Indian allies against a confederation of Chichimeca Indians. It was the longest and most expensive conflict between Spaniards and the indigenous peoples of New Spain in the history of the colony.[1]

    The Guachichiles’ territory centered on the area around what would become the city of San Luis Potosi. They seem to have been the most numerous of the four ethnic groups and the de facto leaders of the Chichimecas. Their name meant ‘head colored red” and they colored both their skin and clothing that color. Living in close proximity to the silver road between Queretaro and Zacatecas, they were the most feared of the Indian raiders.[7]

    Peace by Purchase

    As the war continued unabated, it became clear that the Spanish policy of a war of fire and blood had failed. The royal treasury was being emptied by the demands of the war. Churchmen and others who had initially supported the war of fire and blood now questioned the policy. Mistreatment and enslavement of the Chichimeca by Spaniards increasingly came to be seen as the cause of the war. In 1574, the Dominicans, contrary to the Augustinians and Franciscans, declared that the Chichimeca War was unjust and caused by Spanish aggression.[14] Thus, to end the conflict, the Spanish began to work toward an effective counter insurgency policy which rewarded the Chichimeca for peaceful behavior while taking steps to assimilate them.


    In 1584, the Bishop of Guadalajara made a proposal for a “Christian remedy” to the war: the establishment of new towns with priests, soldiers, and friendly Indians to gradually domesticate and Christianize the Chichimecas. The Viceroy, Alvaro Manrique de Zuniga, followed this idea in 1586 with a policy of removing many Spanish soldiers from the frontier as they were considered more a provocation than a remedy. The Viceroy opened negotiations with Chichimeca leaders and promised them food, clothing, land, priests, and tools to encourage them through “gentle persuasion” to settle down. He forbade military operations to seek out and capture and kill hostile Indians. One of the key people behind these negotiations was Miguel Caldera, a captain who was of both Spanish and Guachichile desecent. Beginning in 1590 and continuing for several decades the Spanish implemented the “Peace by Purchase” program by sending large quantities of goods northward to be distributed to the Chichimecas. In 1590 the Viceroy declared the program a success and the roads to Zacatecas safe for the first time in 40 years.[15]

    The Spanish policy which evolved to pacify the Chichimecas had four components: negotiation of peace agreements, converting Indians to Christianity with missionaries, resettling Native Americans allies to the frontier to serve as examples and role models, and providing food, other commodities, and tools to potentially hostile Indians to encourage them to become sedentary. This established the pattern of Spanish policy for assimilating Native Americans on their northern frontier. The principal components of the policy of peace by purchase would continue for nearly three centuries and would not be uniformly successful, as later threats from hostile Indians such as Apaches and Comanches would demonstrate.


    Chichimecas today

    Over time most of the Chichimeca people lost their ethnic identities and were absorbed into the mestizo population of Mexico. The Zacatecos and Guamares totally disappeared as distinct peoples.


    There are about 10,000 speakers of the Pame languages in Mexico, primarily in the municipality of Santa Maria Acapulco in an isolated region in southeastern San Luis Potosi province. They are conservative and nominal Catholics, but mostly still practicing their traditional religion and customs. Another group of about 1,500 Chichimeca Jonaz live in the state of Guanajuato and San Luis Potosi.





    NUESTRA HISTORIA SAN LUIS DE LA PAZ - Durante la conquista de nuestro país en el siglo XVI, los españoles enfrentaron a un adversario tan feroz y belicoso que su sola mención los hacía temblar; tan astuto y poderoso que tardaron cuarenta años en dominar; tan indómito y atrevido que por las armas no pudieron vencer. Este extraordinario contrincante fue la Nación Chichimeca.

    En la época prehispánica, los Chichimecas eran sumamente temidos por su belicosidad y fiereza por los demás pueblos. Nunca pudieron ser sometidos por nadie, ni aún por los poderosos aztecas. Al arribar los españoles, tampoco ellos lograron vencerlos por las armas. Es así que los conquistadores se enfrentaron a la más larga y cruenta lucha en América, la cual duró cuatro décadas, de 1550 a 1590.


    En el antiguo valle de Juagué-nandé, hoy municipio de San Luis de la Paz, existe la última comunidad chichimeca-jonaz. Sus habitantes hacen un esfuerzo por mantener sus costumbres y su lengua a pesar de la globalización que vive nuestro planeta.

    Cuatro eran los principales grupos Chichimecas: pames, guamares, zacatecos y guachichiles. Estos a su vez se dividían en sub-grupos o tribus. El noreste del estado de Guanajuato era habitado por guamares y pames. Gonzalo de las Casas, escritor del siglo XVI, llama a los guamares los más valientes, aguerridos y astutos de los chichimecas. Los pames según Phillip Powell, gran estudioso de su cultura, eran nómadas que se desplazaban en gran parte de la zona de los guachichiles y otomíes. Por lo cual habían absorbido de estos últimos algunos "refinamientos culturales", particularmente en el ámbito de las prácticas religiosas.

    El modo de vida por toda la Gran Chichimeca variaba muy poco de un grupo a otro. Por ende, se pueden enunciar ciertos usos, costumbres y tradiciones comunes entre ellos:

    Eran cazadores y recolectores, pero sobre todo indómitos guerreros. Su manera de cazar y de pelear era principalmente con arco y flecha. El arco estaba hecho de maderas que existían en la zona; la flecha era de caña y con punta de obsidiana o simplemente tostada; la cuerda era de fibra vegetal, humana o de tendones de animales. Su destreza y puntería con el instrumento era digna de temor y respeto.

    En la época prehispánica, los Chichimecas eran sumamente temidos por su belicosidad y fiereza por los demás pueblos. Nunca pudieron ser sometidos por nadie, ni aún por los poderosos aztecas. Al arribar los españoles, tampoco ellos lograron vencerlos por las armas. Es así que los conquistadores se enfrentaron a la más larga y cruenta lucha en América, la cual duró cuatro décadas, de 1550 a 1590.

    No fue ni a sangre ni a fuego como fueron finalmente pacificados, sino se vieron forzados por carencias de alimentación y salud a aceptar "tratados" en los que se les otorgaron favores y territorios para sobrevivir. Aunque se cree que muchos de estos indómitos guerreros nunca se vencieron y prefirieron aislarse y desaparecer a lugares desconocidos.

    Hoy, los chichimeca-jonaz, descendientes de estos grandes guerreros y pobladores originales del valle en el que se localiza actualmente nuestra ciudad, tienen su última comunidad en los territorios otorgados por el virrey Don Luis de Velasco II: La Misión de Chichimecas.

    http://www.sanluisdelapaz.com/nacion_chichimeca.html


    And Pueblids were not conquered perhaps?
    Pueblid is a phenotype

  7. #37
    Veteran Member nicalandia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alnortedelsur View Post
    It looks that for that guy to be happy, you have to say that you're 100% amerindian, and Mexico is 100% Amerindian, and renegade from the European blood that you have, and deny any kind of European contribution in the Mexican genome. If you don't do so, you hate your amerindian side.
    I agree with you

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    Quote Originally Posted by RMuller View Post
    The Chichimeca War (1550–1590) was a military conflict waged between Spanish colonizers and their Indian allies against a confederation of Chichimeca Indians. It was the longest and most expensive conflict between Spaniards and the indigenous peoples of New Spain in the history of the colony.[1]

    The Guachichiles’ territory centered on the area around what would become the city of San Luis Potosi. They seem to have been the most numerous of the four ethnic groups and the de facto leaders of the Chichimecas. Their name meant ‘head colored red” and they colored both their skin and clothing that color. Living in close proximity to the silver road between Queretaro and Zacatecas, they were the most feared of the Indian raiders.[7]

    Peace by Purchase

    As the war continued unabated, it became clear that the Spanish policy of a war of fire and blood had failed. The royal treasury was being emptied by the demands of the war. Churchmen and others who had initially supported the war of fire and blood now questioned the policy. Mistreatment and enslavement of the Chichimeca by Spaniards increasingly came to be seen as the cause of the war. In 1574, the Dominicans, contrary to the Augustinians and Franciscans, declared that the Chichimeca War was unjust and caused by Spanish aggression.[14] Thus, to end the conflict, the Spanish began to work toward an effective counter insurgency policy which rewarded the Chichimeca for peaceful behavior while taking steps to assimilate them.


    In 1584, the Bishop of Guadalajara made a proposal for a “Christian remedy” to the war: the establishment of new towns with priests, soldiers, and friendly Indians to gradually domesticate and Christianize the Chichimecas. The Viceroy, Alvaro Manrique de Zuniga, followed this idea in 1586 with a policy of removing many Spanish soldiers from the frontier as they were considered more a provocation than a remedy. The Viceroy opened negotiations with Chichimeca leaders and promised them food, clothing, land, priests, and tools to encourage them through “gentle persuasion” to settle down. He forbade military operations to seek out and capture and kill hostile Indians. One of the key people behind these negotiations was Miguel Caldera, a captain who was of both Spanish and Guachichile desecent. Beginning in 1590 and continuing for several decades the Spanish implemented the “Peace by Purchase” program by sending large quantities of goods northward to be distributed to the Chichimecas. In 1590 the Viceroy declared the program a success and the roads to Zacatecas safe for the first time in 40 years.[15]

    The Spanish policy which evolved to pacify the Chichimecas had four components: negotiation of peace agreements, converting Indians to Christianity with missionaries, resettling Native Americans allies to the frontier to serve as examples and role models, and providing food, other commodities, and tools to potentially hostile Indians to encourage them to become sedentary. This established the pattern of Spanish policy for assimilating Native Americans on their northern frontier. The principal components of the policy of peace by purchase would continue for nearly three centuries and would not be uniformly successful, as later threats from hostile Indians such as Apaches and Comanches would demonstrate.


    Chichimecas today

    Over time most of the Chichimeca people lost their ethnic identities and were absorbed into the mestizo population of Mexico. The Zacatecos and Guamares totally disappeared as distinct peoples.


    There are about 10,000 speakers of the Pame languages in Mexico, primarily in the municipality of Santa Maria Acapulco in an isolated region in southeastern San Luis Potosi province. They are conservative and nominal Catholics, but mostly still practicing their traditional religion and customs. Another group of about 1,500 Chichimeca Jonaz live in the state of Guanajuato and San Luis Potosi.





    NUESTRA HISTORIA SAN LUIS DE LA PAZ - Durante la conquista de nuestro país en el siglo XVI, los españoles enfrentaron a un adversario tan feroz y belicoso que su sola mención los hacía temblar; tan astuto y poderoso que tardaron cuarenta años en dominar; tan indómito y atrevido que por las armas no pudieron vencer. Este extraordinario contrincante fue la Nación Chichimeca.

    En la época prehispánica, los Chichimecas eran sumamente temidos por su belicosidad y fiereza por los demás pueblos. Nunca pudieron ser sometidos por nadie, ni aún por los poderosos aztecas. Al arribar los españoles, tampoco ellos lograron vencerlos por las armas. Es así que los conquistadores se enfrentaron a la más larga y cruenta lucha en América, la cual duró cuatro décadas, de 1550 a 1590.


    En el antiguo valle de Juagué-nandé, hoy municipio de San Luis de la Paz, existe la última comunidad chichimeca-jonaz. Sus habitantes hacen un esfuerzo por mantener sus costumbres y su lengua a pesar de la globalización que vive nuestro planeta.

    Cuatro eran los principales grupos Chichimecas: pames, guamares, zacatecos y guachichiles. Estos a su vez se dividían en sub-grupos o tribus. El noreste del estado de Guanajuato era habitado por guamares y pames. Gonzalo de las Casas, escritor del siglo XVI, llama a los guamares los más valientes, aguerridos y astutos de los chichimecas. Los pames según Phillip Powell, gran estudioso de su cultura, eran nómadas que se desplazaban en gran parte de la zona de los guachichiles y otomíes. Por lo cual habían absorbido de estos últimos algunos "refinamientos culturales", particularmente en el ámbito de las prácticas religiosas.

    El modo de vida por toda la Gran Chichimeca variaba muy poco de un grupo a otro. Por ende, se pueden enunciar ciertos usos, costumbres y tradiciones comunes entre ellos:

    Eran cazadores y recolectores, pero sobre todo indómitos guerreros. Su manera de cazar y de pelear era principalmente con arco y flecha. El arco estaba hecho de maderas que existían en la zona; la flecha era de caña y con punta de obsidiana o simplemente tostada; la cuerda era de fibra vegetal, humana o de tendones de animales. Su destreza y puntería con el instrumento era digna de temor y respeto.

    En la época prehispánica, los Chichimecas eran sumamente temidos por su belicosidad y fiereza por los demás pueblos. Nunca pudieron ser sometidos por nadie, ni aún por los poderosos aztecas. Al arribar los españoles, tampoco ellos lograron vencerlos por las armas. Es así que los conquistadores se enfrentaron a la más larga y cruenta lucha en América, la cual duró cuatro décadas, de 1550 a 1590.

    No fue ni a sangre ni a fuego como fueron finalmente pacificados, sino se vieron forzados por carencias de alimentación y salud a aceptar "tratados" en los que se les otorgaron favores y territorios para sobrevivir. Aunque se cree que muchos de estos indómitos guerreros nunca se vencieron y prefirieron aislarse y desaparecer a lugares desconocidos.

    Hoy, los chichimeca-jonaz, descendientes de estos grandes guerreros y pobladores originales del valle en el que se localiza actualmente nuestra ciudad, tienen su última comunidad en los territorios otorgados por el virrey Don Luis de Velasco II: La Misión de Chichimecas.

    http://www.sanluisdelapaz.com/nacion_chichimeca.html
    They even surrendered to the Spaniards without fighting. Fantastic evangelization, yes sir.


    Quote Originally Posted by RMuller View Post
    Pueblid is a phenotype
    ah ok I thought you was referring the Indios Pueblo (and possibly both concepts have to do each other).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cristiano viejo View Post
    They even surrendered to the Spaniards without fighting. Fantastic evangelization, yes sir.
    Nope, it was the Spaniards that wanted peace.40 years of war and the Spaniards and their Amerindian allies didn't move an inch. The Chichimecas were never conquered by anybody.



    En Espanol. Re-read it again.


    NUESTRA HISTORIA SAN LUIS DE LA PAZ - Durante la conquista de nuestro país en el siglo XVI, los españoles enfrentaron a un adversario tan feroz y belicoso que su sola mención los hacía temblar; tan astuto y poderoso que tardaron cuarenta años en dominar; tan indómito y atrevido que por las armas no pudieron vencer. Este extraordinario contrincante fue la Nación Chichimeca.


    En la época prehispánica, los Chichimecas eran sumamente temidos por su belicosidad y fiereza por los demás pueblos. Nunca pudieron ser sometidos por nadie, ni aún por los poderosos aztecas. Al arribar los españoles, tampoco ellos lograron vencerlos por las armas. Es así que los conquistadores se enfrentaron a la más larga y cruenta lucha en América, la cual duró cuatro décadas, de 1550 a 1590.


    No fue ni a sangre ni a fuego como fueron finalmente pacificados, sino se vieron forzados por carencias de alimentación y salud a aceptar "tratados" en los que se les otorgaron favores y territorios para sobrevivir. Aunque se cree que muchos de estos indómitos guerreros nunca se vencieron y prefirieron aislarse y desaparecer a lugares desconocidos.


    http://www.sanluisdelapaz.com/nacion_chichimeca.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by RMuller View Post
    Nope, it was the Spaniards that wanted peace.40 years of war and the Spaniards and their Amerindian allies didn't move an inch. The Chichimecas were never conquered by anybody.
    First, Chichimecas were defeated in the Mixtón War, they were part of the Indian coallition against Spaniards.
    Second,
    Antes de la llegada de los españoles, los Chichimecas-Jonaz merodeaban más al oeste, pero con el tiempo se fueron moviendo al oeste hasta llegar a las sierras del Norte de Guanajuato.

    Cuando llegaron los españoles, la etnia luchó contra éstos, pero viendo su superioridad se refugiaron en lo profundo de la sierra, logrando así su supervivencia.
    http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chichimeca-Jonaz

    they were colonized and lost their territories and their identity, how can you say they were not conquered? there were many ways to conquer. Many tribes were conquered by the priests. More easy.


    Quote Originally Posted by RMuller View Post
    En Espanol. Re-read it again.


    NUESTRA HISTORIA SAN LUIS DE LA PAZ - Durante la conquista de nuestro país en el siglo XVI, los españoles enfrentaron a un adversario tan feroz y belicoso que su sola mención los hacía temblar; tan astuto y poderoso que tardaron cuarenta años en dominar; tan indómito y atrevido que por las armas no pudieron vencer. Este extraordinario contrincante fue la Nación Chichimeca.


    En la época prehispánica, los Chichimecas eran sumamente temidos por su belicosidad y fiereza por los demás pueblos. Nunca pudieron ser sometidos por nadie, ni aún por los poderosos aztecas. Al arribar los españoles, tampoco ellos lograron vencerlos por las armas. Es así que los conquistadores se enfrentaron a la más larga y cruenta lucha en América, la cual duró cuatro décadas, de 1550 a 1590.


    No fue ni a sangre ni a fuego como fueron finalmente pacificados, sino se vieron forzados por carencias de alimentación y salud a aceptar "tratados" en los que se les otorgaron favores y territorios para sobrevivir. Aunque se cree que muchos de estos indómitos guerreros nunca se vencieron y prefirieron aislarse y desaparecer a lugares desconocidos.


    http://www.sanluisdelapaz.com/nacion_chichimeca.html
    Thats just a partial comment which it has many historical errors.
    For example, there was not "the most large war in America", that happened against Mapuches in current Chile, almost 300 years.
    The own comment admits that "after forty years of struggle they were subjugated".

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