Dionysian ecstatic cults in early Rome

[Liffrea]

A new doctoral thesis from the University of Gothenburg, Sweden, shows that, in contrast to traditional scholarly claims, Dionysian cultic activities may very well have occurred in archaic Rome in the decades around 500 BC.

A strong scholarly tradition rooted in the 19th century denies the presence of Dionysian ecstatic rites, cults, and satyr plays in Roman society. Although people in nearby societies evidently engaged in such behaviour around the same time in history, the Romans simply did not, according to early scholars. British scholars often stressed how much their people had in common with the Romans, not least as statesmen and colonists.

‘They even claimed that they had the same mentality. This perception is reflected in modern research on the Roman society and religion as well’, says the author of the thesis Carina Håkansson.

Religious research has also been influenced by the Christian tradition. For example Dionysian cults have had problems gaining acceptance as a ’real’ religion since the possibility that religion could ever be connected with bawdy behaviour and drunkenness has generally been rejected. This argument alone was enough to make early scholars neglect and reject the thought of Dionysian cult as religion proper.

http://www.alphagalileo.org/ViewItem...CultureCode=en

[Foxy]

I don't understand this "discovery". At school I have studied that Roman did dionisyac cults, they had only a different name: Baccanali. Dionisius was a Greek god while his Roman version was Bacco and his female priests were called "Baccanti" and their rites are famous.

Baccanali were celebrations lasting 2-3 days with animal sacrifices and sexual rites, usually these latter occurred between populations from different villages/regions, usually from the most remote areas, to remix the reciprocal gene pools and avoid incests (in this prospective they were all but immoral).

Rome during the II century applied fines against acts of sexual violences and sodomy that could occur during the rites, although they were admitted on slaves. They were banned for a period becouse in the latin world during Baccanali happened every sort of thing, but they were admitted again in the Emperial Age.

[Groenewolf]

I have also read about the existence of such cults in Rome, alto more in the sense of that it was outlawed for disrupting public order.

[Foxy]

I have also read about the existence of such cults in Rome, alto more in the sense of that it was outlawed for disrupting public order.

Well, Romans were pretty pedantic compared to Greeks. They lived for the State.

[Curtis24]

I don't understand this "discovery". At school I have studied that Roman did dionisyac cults, they had only a different name: Baccanali. Dionisius was a Greek god while his Roman version was Bacco and his female priests were called "Baccanti" and their rites are famous.

Baccanali were celebrations lasting 2-3 days with animal sacrifices and sexual rites, usually these latter occurred between populations from different villages/regions, usually from the most remote areas, to remix the reciprocal gene pools and avoid incests (in this prospective they were all but immoral).

Rome during the II century applied fines against acts of sexual violences and sodomy that could occur during the rites, although they were admitted on slaves. They were banned for a period becouse in the latin world during Baccanali happened every sort of thing, but they were admitted again in the Emperial Age.

I believe the significance is in the timing of the cults - most historians agree that Dionysian cults existed in late Roman Empire, but that they weren't around during the Roman Republic and the expansion of the empire. Traditionally, British and other historians have associated Dionysian cults with the decline and fall of Rome. As Romans became more "hedonistic", they lost the discipline and dedication needed to run their empire. So the theory goes.

But if this new research is correct, it would mean that the Romans had embraced "hedonistic" values long before their rise as a power.

[sean]

Dionysian worship may have predated Greece, and might have also been suppressed and was only allowed back in the pantheon after a forced rebranding (after giving him a make over to make the litanies, evocations, rituals and worship more chaste and dignified).

His worship was tied to wine and throwing away societal pressures while being drunk, which made him popular with people of lower classes, but the whole "stick it to the man" thing was not okay with people in upper classes, hence the suppression.

The cult attracted the worst people of the ancient world. The preformed incestuous orgies and cannibalism. It was extremely popular with women and helots. The minorities of the Greek world.

The maenads were female followers of Dionysus who would "frenzy" and go on killing sprees. This is a concept that anyone with a more "natural" lifestyle is more animal like and uncivilised. This is a common theme in lots of mythology and references the conceitedness that civilised people have over various "less developed" cultures. James Joyce references this a lot in Finnegans Wake in relation to indigenous Irish folk and the civilised world turning the country into a modern western society that has muted the goddess of nature.

During the Roman period, the cult members shattered even the most liberal cultural norms about sex and the freedom of people, which ultimately led to a secret society of people with an entirely different moral code to the rest of society.

Cultures exchange, new cults steal. They are all essentially syncretic types of monotheism differing only in their underlying mythology. Mithraism had a Zoroastrian undertone, the Dionysian cult had a Greek undertone, the cult of Isis had an Egyptian undertone. Egypt was already a major fixture in the Roman mystery cult scene 2000 years ago. The Cult of Isis was a big deal, Osiris was already associated with Dionysus.

Dionysus also has a Death/Resurrection story, after being torn to shreds by the Titans at Hera's command. So, she's first on the list for making him go through that. Since he has aspects reflecting Madness, like how he drove people in Thebes insane and claimed them as his followers, and regarding Resurrection, he's probably converting the gods he kills into versions of themselves that reflect his old cult. In his eyes restoring what should be by bringing back his religion. The original religion, as far as he's concerned.