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Thread: WHEN ITALIANS WERE “BLACKS”: THE DARK-SKINNED SICILIANS

  1. #101
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    A lot of myths posted in this thread like it is fact. Obviously people don't research. Not sure if people deliberately post mis-information but I was very surprised to learn on here (in the past) that Irish weren't considered white in the US and also that Irish were slaves. A quick bit of research was enough to realise it was BS. Not sure why people can't research before they post some of this stuff. Anyway Italians, Jews and of course Irish were always considered white. It always baffled me why the Irish wouldn't be considered white when they were the same colour as the Brits and were in fact part of the UK when they came to the US. It is sort of strange that people would believe this stuff. They were looked down on as poor, uneducated and Catholic because this bigotry followed them with the British.

    You could be discriminated against and still be white. This is a good article looking at the topic.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.2a088855b5e4

    I just like accuracy if possible and hope that people research this sort of stuff and don't take everything they read as fact because there sure is a lot of incorrect information posted on websites.

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grace O'Malley View Post

    You could be discriminated against and still be white. This is a good article looking at the topic.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.2a088855b5e4
    Hmm... I can understand why the Jew wrote that article, because he wants Jews -- along with Irish and Italians -- to be white as well. But I don't know, I've seen conflicting information about this... whether they were historically considered "white" in colonial America or not. For example, look at this article:

    https://history.howstuffworks.com/hi...ered-white.htm

    In the 19th-century United States, racism was rampant. Chinese immigrants were openly mocked, often in unfavorable newspaper caricatures. Germans were stereotyped as loitering in beer halls. African-Americans were portrayed in demeaning advertisements. And Irish people — who were not considered "white" by the existing majority at the time — were mistreated, too.

    Not only were Irish immigrants viewed as interlopers by many white Americans (an irony, considering the historical treatment of Native Americans), but these immigrants were Catholics in a primarily Protestant land. It was a religious difference that widened the divide, as did the fact that many Irish immigrants didn't speak English. As strange as may it may sound today, Irish immigrants were not considered "white" and were sometimes referred to "negroes turned inside out."
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  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Hmm... I can understand why the Jew wrote that article, because he wants Jews -- along with Irish and Italians -- to be white as well. But I don't know, I've seen conflicting information about this... whether they were historically considered "white" in colonial America or not. For example, look at this article:

    https://history.howstuffworks.com/hi...ered-white.htm

    In the 19th-century United States, racism was rampant. Chinese immigrants were openly mocked, often in unfavorable newspaper caricatures. Germans were stereotyped as loitering in beer halls. African-Americans were portrayed in demeaning advertisements. And Irish people — who were not considered "white" by the existing majority at the time — were mistreated, too.

    Not only were Irish immigrants viewed as interlopers by many white Americans (an irony, considering the historical treatment of Native Americans), but these immigrants were Catholics in a primarily Protestant land. It was a religious difference that widened the divide, as did the fact that many Irish immigrants didn't speak English. As strange as may it may sound today, Irish immigrants were not considered "white" and were sometimes referred to "negroes turned inside out."
    That article is just repeating the same thing but you will not find any legislation or laws saying that Irish or other Europeans were non-white. They held jobs as sheriffs etc and also married who they wished and held property. In the 1800s in the US there were many prominent Irish people. One of the signatories of the Declaration of Independence was an Irish Catholic. They were never considered non-white and this has been thoroughly debunked.

    If the Irish weren't considered white then any group of Europeans could be considered non-white. But this didn't happen because race is obvious or are we to believe that Africans were discriminated against and enslaved not because of their race?

    It all evolved around race being a social construct and if the Irish weren't considered white like Africans than all African-Americans have to do is get on with it and not complain about being discriminated against.

    A lot of this revisionist history started in the 1990s with Noel Ignatiev's book "How the Irish Became White".

    "Ignatiev's study of Irish immigrants in the 19th-century United States argues that an Irish triumph over nativism marks the incorporation of the Irish into the dominant group of American society. Ignatiev asserts that the Irish were not initially accepted as white by the dominant English-American population. He claims that only through their own violence against free blacks and support of slavery did the Irish gain acceptance as white. Ignatiev defines whiteness as the access to white privilege, which according to Ignatiev gains people perceived to have "white" skin admission to certain neighborhoods, schools, and jobs. In the 19th century whiteness was strongly associated with political power, especially suffrage. Ignatiev's book on Irish immigrants has been criticized, however, for "conflat[ing] race and economic position" and for ignoring data that contradicts his theses.[8]"

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noel_Ignatiev

    Maybe race doesn't really exist after all? If Irish weren't seen as "white" then being "white" is not based on race but on social privilege.

    This is also another quote from Ignatiev "the goal of abolishing the white race is on its face so desirable that some may find it hard to believe that it could incur any opposition other than from committed white supremacists."

    Anyway people using this stuff usually have an agenda and it is either similar to Ignatiev or others who want to diminish what African-Americans went through and say that other groups i.e. Irish suffered the same or worse because they were slaves and also not seen as white.

    It is all easily researched and has been debunked by numerous sources.

    Just a quick look at Wiki for Irish in the 17th-18th century. No mention of them being classified as "non-white".

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_...d-19th_century

  4. #104
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    This doesn't have anything to do with Noel Ignatiev's book. He didn't create history, just wrote about it, and obviously exaggerated. But forget about Ignatiev. Let's look at history.

    Of course the Irish were not considered the same race as negroes, and whilst negroes were slaves, Irish were not. But they were considered different from the Protestant English. And interestingly enough, it was mostly it seems the Irish who interbred with negroes to form mixed race people:

    In the census of 1850, the term “mulatto” appears for the first time, due primarily to inter-marriage between Irish and African-Americans.

    In those days, the Irish immigrants had much in common with African-Americans; they might be nicknamed “Negroes turned inside out” while African-Americans would be “smoked Irish”. A quip, attributed to an African-American, went something like this: “My master is a great tyrant, he treats me like a common Irishman.”
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    This doesn't have anything to do with Noel Ignatiev's book. He didn't create history, just wrote about it, and obviously exaggerated. But forget about Ignatiev. Let's look at history.

    Of course the Irish were not considered the same race as negroes, and whilst negroes were slaves, Irish were not. But they were considered different from the Protestant English. And interestingly enough, it was mostly it seems the Irish who interbred with negroes to form mixed race people:

    In the census of 1850, the term “mulatto” appears for the first time, due primarily to inter-marriage between Irish and African-Americans.

    In those days, the Irish immigrants had much in common with African-Americans; they might be nicknamed “Negroes turned inside out” while African-Americans would be “smoked Irish”. A quip, attributed to an African-American, went something like this: “My master is a great tyrant, he treats me like a common Irishman.”
    I don't know where you are getting your info from but it wasn't "mostly Irish who interbred with African-Americans". Most African-Americans got their white ancestry through their slave masters and not from intermarriage with the Irish. The majority of Irish immigrants arrived post-famine and it wasn't common for Irish to marry African-Americans. It can be seen in a lot of their surnames for starters. Even Mohammad Ali's Irish ancestor wasn't Irish, he actually has no Irish ancestry but had some English and Scottish. So yes I'd like to see where you are getting that information from as on any genealogical site African-Americans trace their European blood back to slave-masters. This is the general consensus on where most African-Americans got their European blood.

    https://blogs.ancestry.com/ancestry/...merican-roots/

    https://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/28/s...rican-dna.html

    Irish were considered different than Protestant English because of religion not race. Protestant Irishmen did not suffer the same discrimination as Catholic Irishmen. There was always Catholic Irish in the US but the vast majority of them arrived after the 1850s during the famine years and after. I have relatives that went to the US in the 1870s. It wasn't racial which some people have great difficulty understanding. Some of my Irish relatives married Scots and English so I have some personal knowledge of the subject and yes they were white on the census.

    Wikipedia entry for Mulatto.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mulatto

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    Irish could not have become naturalized citizens if they weren't considered white (same goes for Italians and Jews).

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    The 'Irish weren't considered white' meme is literally based on a some comedic cartoons in pulp magazines of the day.
    Spoiler!

  8. #108
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    Why is this troll thread still bumped?

    There is nothing to discuss here...

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    The odd thing is that even mestizo Mexicans and other "Latinos" were counted as white by the US census bureau before the Hispanic category was invented in the 70s. It must be, because at first they had to naturalize as citizens the mostly mestizo Mexicans of the southwestern territories annexed from Mexico in the 1840s and only whites could become naturalized citizens back then.

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    Here's an old Louisiana French song "The Dagos Are All sick"

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