Scandinavia before the Indo European expansion?

[Nurzat]

Northwest Europe before the Indo-Europeans:

Faelid
Borreby
Eastbaltid
Westbaltid
Atlantid

except Nordid and some Atlantomed influence in the meantime, mostly like today

[Dombra]

Maybe, but by the time they arrived in Finland they where Germanic, most likely the same moving up Scandinavia.

I1 is Germanic yes, but it has nothing to do with proto-IEs, that is where Nordic R1a comes from

Northwest Europe before the Indo-Europeans:

Faelid
Borreby
Eastbaltid
Westbaltid
Atlantid

except Nordid and some Atlantomed influence in the meantime, mostly like today

No such thing as "Atlantids" existed back then

[Äijä]

I1 is Germanic yes, but it has nothing to do with proto-IEs, that is where Nordic R1a comes from

Did the Nordic R1a enter Saxony-Scania axis at what time? That is where the Nordic I1 spread from.

[Dombra]

Did the Nordic R1a enter Saxony-Scania axis at what time? That is where the Nordic I1 spread from.

It probably did. Some R1a´s must have been present even even if the bulk remained I1

[Äijä]

It probably did. Some R1a´s must have been present even even if the bulk remained I1

Maybe Mazik can tell more about the present situation in tracing this event, I havent seen a good Germanic ethogenesis analysis ever.

[igo112]

...

[Gooding]

Well, judging from all of this, the I1s seem to have been very much present in Northern Europe before the appearance of the Germanic peoples and the Volkerwanderungen just commencing around the time that Rome fell had to have dispersed that haplogroup still more. I take it for a given that the proto- Indo- Europeans absorbed the I1s during their general expansion into Northern Europe.

[Äijä]

Well, judging from all of this, the I1s seem to have been very much present in Northern Europe before the appearance of the Germanic peoples and the Volkerwanderungen just commencing around the time that Rome fell had to have dispersed that haplogroup still more. I take it for a given that the proto- Indo- Europeans absorbed the I1s during their general expansion into Northern Europe.

Yes but most of this is not researched enough, there is something weird in all of this.

[Peterski]

Germanic-speaking Scandinavians are 35-40% I1, which is probably the marker of first farmers who moved to Scandinavia. They also have a lot of R1b (especially Danes), R1a (especially Norwegians) and N1c (Swedes).

IMHO in Scandinavia we had the following Y-DNA patterns in period since 8000 years ago until the Iron Age:

1. Hunter-gatherers of southern Scandinavia:

Kongemose culture - haplogroup I2 (I2a1 and I2c)
Pitted Ware culture - haplogroup I2 (I2a1 and I2c)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kongemose_culture
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pitted_Ware_culture

2. Immigration of Neolithic farmers (TRB culture):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Funnelbeaker_culture

Northern group of TRB culture - I1 (descended from previous Neolithic LBK culture)

Why do I think that I1 came to Scandinavia with Neolithic TRB farmers? Because a sample of I1 was found in ca. 7500 years old burial of LBK culture in Hungary (Neolithic farmers - Linear Pottery culture), from which the TRB (Funnel Beaker culture) later evolved. Of course not entire TRB was I1, but the northernmost group of TRB could become I1 due to a founder effect. Those I1 people came as Neolithic farmers and largely replaced Y-DNA haplogroups of Mesolithic hunter-gatherers (I2a1 and I2c), but absorbed a rather large part of their maternal lineages (mtDNA).

I1 was originally a marker of hunter-gatherers, but it became assimilated by Neolithic farmers (mostly G2a) in Hungary and mixed with them, acquiring Neolithic autosomal DNA. Later probably a founder effect (migration of a relatively small group) and chance, caused the spread of I1 - but not G2a - to Scandinavia with TRB people.

Neolithic farmers came to Europe from the Near East (they had haplogroups G, E1b, T1, H2, J, etc.). After moving to Europe they gradually absorbed some of "indigenous" European haplogroups (like I, C1).

3. Copper-Bronze Ages (Indo-European invasion):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_Bronze_Age

3a) North-westernmost group of Corded Ware culture - R1a-Z284 and R1a-CTS4385 (incl. mostly L664),
3b) North-eastern group of Bell Beaker culture - R1b (probably U106 subclade ?)

It seems that R1a-Z284 & L664 came first and moved deeper towards the north, while Beaker folks came a bit later and initially stayed more confined to southern part of Scandinavia. This would explain the patterns of modern distribution of haplogroups in Scandinavia (R1a frequency peaks in Norway, while R1b frequency in Denmark).

4. Earlier part of the Iron Age:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jastorf_culture

4a) Influence of Hallstatt culture (Celts) on Nordic Bronze Age, leads to emergence of Jastorf culture,
4b) Influence of La Tene culture (Celts) on Jastorf culture, leads to so called latenization of the latter:

Latenization - an archaeological term referring to the diffusion of the Celtic culture called after the Swiss site of La Tène.

During 4a) and 4b) I suppose that more R1b (was it still U106 or other subclades ?) was introduced to Scandinavia by the Celts - at first by Hallstatt influence on the Nordic Bronze Age, then by La Tene on Jastorf. During that early period Celtic-speaking peoples exerted strong influence on proto-Germanic-speaking peoples. PGMC terms for 'ruler/king', 'kingdom', 'iron', 'medic', 'mail shirt', 'town', etc. were loanwords from Celtic according to linguist Donald Ringe. In early written sources we also find suspiciously many leaders of Germanic-speaking tribes, who had Celtic names (e.g. Boiorix, Lugins, Claodicus, Ceasorix, Marbod, Ariovistus - all of these appear to be names of Celtic linguistic origin).

====================================

There is also hg Q (mostly sub-branch Q1a2b1 L527) in Scandinavia. It was probably introduced by the Huns:

http://www.academia.edu/5352394/Scan..._Migration_Era

Though there are also other theories on how it got to Scandinavia (e.g. Vikings returning from America).

Q is mostly present in Native Americans and Greenlanders, as well as in many East Asians and Central Asians.

====================================

Finally N1c - it was probably absorbed by Swedes from Kvens, Lapps, Finns, and Balts.

[Peterski]

R1a first immigrated into Scandinavia with people of Corded Ware cultures (also known as Battle Axe cultures).

R1b could first move into Denmark with people of Bell Beaker cultures - more could also come later (read above).

Central Germany (just west of the Elbe) apparently was the borderland of R1b (to the west) and R1a (to the east) in Copper-Bronze Ages. But although intermingled in that area, those HGs were found in different cultural contexts - R1b in Bell Beaker, R1a in Corded Ware.

I made a map showing locations of ancient DNA samples of R1a and R1b which have been found so far:

CW = Corded Ware cultures
BB = Bell Beaker cultures
Urn = Urnfield cultures
Lus = Lusatian Culture

Red circle = one sample of R1a
Blue circle = one sample of R1b

ybp = sample age (years before present)





^ R1a from Karelia (Southern Deer Island, Lake Onega) - from 7500 ybp - was YP1272 subclade.

^ While that R1a from the Lusatian Culture (Lus) - from 3100 ybp - was Z280 subclade.

It was found near Halberstadt, which was near the western periphery of the Lusatian Culture:



The most important of all settlements of the Lusatian Culture found so far, was Biskupin:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biskupin



============================

I also made a genealogical tree of R1a (ethnic associations based on ancient and / or modern DNA):

http://s17.postimg.org/hsnaex6xb/R1a_tree.png



Estimates concerning age of formation and TMRCA of each subclade are from YFull website. But please note that of course these estimates are only very approximate and there is a large margin of error. For example when I checked YFull in late April this year, they had TMRCA of Z645 estimated as 5,000 years ago and formation time of Z283 and Z93 as also 5,000 years ago each. But later in May I checked again, and they changed those estimates to 4,900 and 4,900 and 4,900 years ago respectively. This is of course "the most probable" age, they also have data on "Confidence Interval 95%", and it is always a period of time lasting several centuries.

As for the Tocharians (Tarim mummies) - all seven out of seven male mummies tested on Y-DNA so far were R1a.

They were tested for M198 (of course it turned out positive) and for Z93 - it turned out negative (!):



They were for sure under M198, because this has been tested. But their exact downstream subclade under M198 has not been established so far. However, most certainly they were also under M417. And IMO they could also be under Z645, Z283, or even Z282 (as my tree shows). Tocharians came from Afansyevo culture:



After Tocharians, Indo-Iranians expanded eastward as far as the Altai Region and Western Mongolia:



The spread of chariot (the earliest known chariots so far come from the Sintashta-Arkaim culture):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sintashta_culture



======================

As for Z280 and M458:

Balto-Slavs generally belong to Z280 and M458 (among Poles proportions of the two branches are 50-50, or from 40-60 to 60-40). But perhaps those branches weren't exclusively Balto-Slavic, but also shared by some other - today extinct - Indo-European linguistic groups, such as the Daco-Thracian languages, or the hypothetical Venedic languages (which could be closely related to both Balto-Slavic and Daco-Thracian, if they existed). Daco-Thracian is a hypothetical language family that was probably closely related to Balto-Slavic language family:

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php...#Daco-Thracian

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dacian_language

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thracian_language