Celts a Mediterranean people?

[BarcelonaAtlantis]

[Fantomas]

With your first statement you are just going off Tacitus I presume. So that means to you that they are med. Even if Tacitus thought the Silures looked like Spanish that doesn't mean they were. Tacitus was never even in Britain and also his geography was very suss. He believed that Spain was opposite Wales and that Ireland was lying between them. So really you have to take some of these older sources as not exactly gospel. The Romans also thought the Scots were all red heads but we know genetically that the Scots and Welsh are very closely related. We also know that those populations haven't changed much to the present day.

It's impossible to say what lands Tacitus visited personally. But it doens't mean that he did not know what he wrote about. At least he was married to the daughter of Britain's governor. And yes he's right about Ireland's location. If you read his text carefully you would not have to be surprised

In the fifth year of the war Agricola, himself in the leading ship, crossed the Clota, and subdued in a series of victories tribes hitherto unknown. In that part of Britain which looks towards Ireland, he posted some troops, hoping for fresh conquests rather than fearing attack, inasmuch as Ireland, being between Britain and Spain and conveniently situated for the seas round Gaul



But, nevermind i understand your point that all of the ancient authors, including Irish did not know what were they writing about. That's it.

Regarding your 2nd sentence who are the ancient Celts? Who are you comparing what to?

Nordic Iron age and Med. cranial

Also what proof do you have for no 3. I don't agree with what you say at all. I know from Irish history that the people they were involved with were primarily the Scots, Welsh, Angles, Vikings and Normans and the latter day English. Likewise all British Isles populations were dealing with the same people. England and Wales were part of the Roman Empire but Scotland and Ireland were not.

I'm talking about pre-historic archaeology

Regarding ydna L21 is present in France, Germany etc but the oldest so far has been found in England. I have no doubt they will find older L21 on the Continent with time. What you might not be aware of is that the majority subclade in Iberia is DF27 and guess where the oldest DF27 has been found? Yes German Bell Beaker

R1b wasn't found in the Neolithic. It only became dominant in the Bronze Age.

OK, the next question. how many ancient samples there're from Ireland, England, Iberia for 3000-2500 BC?

I'm sure I've linked these studies before but no one can discuss this topic until they read these studies. Now Bell Beaker was not Celtic but I do believe the Celts grew out of later post Bell Beaker cultures like Unetice.

You will find this quote in the paper below. The paper is called The Beaker Phenomenon and the Genomic Transformation of Northwest Europe which says it all really.





They also found no Steppe dna in the earlier neolithic people but plenty in the Bell Beakers.

http://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorx...35962.full.pdf

If you want to read up on what happened in Portugal this is an excellent paper.

The Population Genomics Of Archaeological Transition In West Iberia

http://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorx...34254.full.pdf

You really need to take an interest in these newer dna studies to understand what happened in the past.

We've talked about it so many times that it makes no sense did it again. All these works are very important and very necessary, but scientific value of the pseudo-archaeological/ historical conclusions based on such a scanty data is close to zero.

[Fantomas]

Fantomas for God sake how can you compare modern British populations with south Europeans? Even northern Germans are genetically closer to South Europe than brits to South Europe

I'm afraid i'll never get the unswer to such a simple question how this method of correlation, between mtdna set and pigmentation level, works?

We can also add the linguistic and prehistoric cultural connection of celts with Mediterraneans, which related ancient celts more with south Europeans than with germanics, during the antiquity

Absolutely agree

Ancient celtic speakers, were a different case, and for sure those who occupied nearly half of South Europe and many in central Europe were genetically closer to southern Europe
But modern celtic survivors (British celts) are definitely closer to northern Europe and absolutely not Mediterranean

You must be surprised, but modern British population have more Mediterranean dna admixture, than in Iron Age

The only sure is that all ie populations were equally originated from the steppe, and celts were not exception

Sure for whom, M.Gimbutas, W.Haak ?!

[Fantomas]

Of 80 Late,Middle and Late Bronze Age samples from Netherlands and Brit Isles only 20 had clearly Nordic pigmentation and 14 had blue eyes with dark or black hair ,so could be Atlantic variation of Meds . Another 46 or more than 50% had pure Mediterranean pigmentation.
It's estimated that Celts originated from tribes of Bell Beaker culture. Well, overwhelming majority of Central European Beakers were Meds as well. Just in Germany their ratio is 25 - 4 not in favour of Nordic pigmentation.
https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2018...beaker-people/
This confirms that at least half of the Celtic population were Meds. regardless what part of Europe they lived.

[brennus dux gallorum]

I feel very Confused. If modern British are more Mediterranean mixed than iron age British were, like you claimed, then who brought this med admixture in Britain, vikings?

[Wrong]

Celts were from the Hallstatt culture.

[Fantomas]

Celts were from the Hallstatt culture.

Conversely, Halstatt culture was from Celts...western part of Halstatt culture, to be precise, was easternmost periphery of Celtic tribes

[Wrong]

Actually, Halstatt culture was from Celts...western part of Halstatt culture, to be precise, was easternmost periphery of Celtic tribes

You are correct here, now that I researched into it throughout Wikipedia.

[DarkWater]

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...-are-some-dark

Ignore the troll who started the thread, the proofs given by the other people in the thread that Celts are a Mediterranean people is very interesting. The idea is that rather than emerging from central Europe Celts originated in Iberia and spread from there. Lots of discussion about how Iberians are mostly Celtic both culturally and genetically, and Welsh and Irish are genetic cousins.

So Iberians, French (Gauls), North Italians, Irish and Welsh are all the same people maybe. The conclusion is that Celts are a Mediterranean people, unrelated to Germanics and Slavs before these groups mixed. I know for a fact the Romans described Welsh people as swarthy and as having curly black hair. Perhaps the Celts were a darker people originally. People associate Celts as very light people but the truth is perhaps they were originally a darker people. Also I heard red hair evolves from black hair.

Discuss

It’s an interesting theory. My haplogroup actually comes from eastern Spain but all of my known heritage of my Paternal direct lineage comes from southwest Germany (inhabited by descendants of Celts and Germanics). Not sure if that’s relavent tonthis because my haplogroup might be younger than this migration of Celts from Spain.

[Taiguaitiaoghyrmmumin]

No. Except ligurians. Who are probably celts due to cultural shifts