Visigothic impact in Iberia

[Damião de Góis]

Iberians on the other hand are totally different case, they had different historical events, they were never center of Roman Empire, but perifery, so relatively they kept somewhat same population (Ibero-Celts) during Roman Empire and after, with exception of Visigoths who had/have an impact (a relatively great one) on Iberian population till this day.

This isn't true. I don't think any invasion had a big genetic impact, given that most iberians are R1b of the iberian variety.

[Permafrost]

This isn't true. I don't think any invasion had a big genetic impact, given that most iberians are R1b of the iberian variety.

That's because it was the visigoth women who raped the iberian men.

[Damião de Góis]

That's because it was the visigoth women who raped the iberian men.

Maybe. The only way they could get anything was by forcing themselves on people:

[Robocop]

This isn't true. I don't think any invasion had a big genetic impact, given that most iberians are R1b of the iberian variety.

When I said that Visigoths had great impact on Iberia, I ment on culture, civilization and ofcourse some amount of Iberian population.

Visigoths had a Kingdom in Iberia for 300 years. And while they were never predominant (ofcourse) population in Iberia durin that time, they were ruling people which in time mixed with Iberians.
Visigoths were (when it comes about Kingdom in Iberia) everything what Ostrogoths SHOULD HAVE BEEN BUT THEY DIDNT HAD ANY TIME to reach that, Ostrogoths were in the wrong place in wrong time (Italy and Croatia).

Now let's see Y-DNA genetic impact of Visigoths in Iberia;

R1b is mostly a Celtic haplogroup, including ancient Italic, Iberian, British and Irish people. But one branch, known as U106 (or S21) originated in the Netherlands and northern Germany, homeland of the Frisians, Franks, Angles, Saxons and Lombards. Germanic ancestry can therefore be traced by looking at the R1b-S21, I1 and I2b (today I2a2) haplogroups.

Now here is a Germanic genetic Y-DNA in Iberia:

Or to be more precise; Germanic haplogroups in Iberia by region;

Aragon : about 18%
Extremadura : about 15%
Majorca : about 12%
Galicia : about 11%
Valencia : about 10%
Asturias : about 8%
Northwest Castille : about 6%
West Andalusia : about 6%
North Portugal : about 5%
East Andalusia : about 2%
Northeast Castille : <1%
Catalonia : <1%
Basque country : <1%
South Portugal : <1%

Sources : The Genetic Legacy of Religious Diversity and Intolerance: Paternal Lineages of Christians

So I wouldn't say that Visigoths didnt had any genetic impact on Iberia, on the contrary...

Everything which is above 10% IS AN IMPACT ON POPULATION.

When we SUM entire Germanic and Italo-Celtic lineage, this is what you get considering Autosomal DNA of Europe:



P.S: And as you know, Autosomal DNA does not lie... Never.

[Damião de Góis]

This would give an interesting discussion, but it's in the wrong thread. Do you mind if i split it into a new thread?

[Robocop]

This would give an interesting discussion, but it's in the wrong thread. Do you mind if i split it into a new thread?

No on the contrary, if you wish but send me the link...

Cheers

[Damião de Góis]

When I said that Visigoths had great impact on Iberia, I ment on culture, civilization and ofcourse some amount of Iberian population.

Visigoths had a Kingdom in Iberia for 300 years. And while they were never predominant (ofcourse) population in Iberia durin that time, they were ruling people which in time mixed with Iberians.
Visigoths were (when it comes about Kingdom in Iberia) everything what Ostrogoths SHOULD HAVE BEEN BUT THEY DIDNT HAD ANY TIME to reach that, Ostrogoths were in the wrong place in wrong time (Italy and Croatia).

Well, while i respect what the Visigoths did historically, the truth is that when they got to Iberia they didn't do anything worth noticing apart from inviting a Muslim invasion from North Africa (the visigoths were at civil war and one of their fractions allied with the moors, the rest is history...). So in the end, their impact in my opinion is very slim.

Now let's see Y-DNA genetic impact of Visigoths in Iberia;

R1b is mostly a Celtic haplogroup, including ancient Italic, Iberian, British and Irish people. But one branch, known as U106 (or S21) originated in the Netherlands and northern Germany, homeland of the Frisians, Franks, Angles, Saxons and Lombards. Germanic ancestry can therefore be traced by looking at the R1b-S21, I1 and I2b (today I2a2) haplogroups.

Now here is a Germanic genetic Y-DNA in Iberia:

Or to be more precise; Germanic haplogroups in Iberia by region;

Aragon : about 18%
Extremadura : about 15%
Majorca : about 12%
Galicia : about 11%
Valencia : about 10%
Asturias : about 8%
Northwest Castille : about 6%
West Andalusia : about 6%
North Portugal : about 5%
East Andalusia : about 2%
Northeast Castille : <1%
Catalonia : <1%
Basque country : <1%
South Portugal : <1%

Sources : The Genetic Legacy of Religious Diversity and Intolerance: Paternal Lineages of Christians

So I wouldn't say that Visigoths didnt had any genetic impact on Iberia, on the contrary...

Everything which is above 10% IS AN IMPACT ON POPULATION.

So those are frequencies for R1b-S21, I1 and I2b? Interesting, but North Portugal and Galicia likely means Suebians instead. And Andalusia likely means Vandals.

When we SUM entire Germanic and Italo-Celtic lineage, this is what you get considering Autosomal DNA of Europe:



P.S: And as you know, Autosomal DNA does not lie... Never.

Indeed, but that West European most likely means something more ancient like Hunter-Gatherers or something, otherwise haplogroups would have different frequencies.

[Robocop]

Ok let me continue. I will continue with Y-DNA impact because I finished with Autosomal DNA for Iberia in last post.

As I've said we can trace Germanic Y-DNA in Iberia trough I2b (now I2a2), I1 and R1b-S21.

Here is one more time more precise data from 2013 research of Iberian regions considering Germanic Y-DNA (previous one was from 2009, we see than in newer research amount is even higher):

Here is the data.

Aragon (n=34)

I1 = 2 (6%)
I2b1 = 1 (3%)
R1b3 S21 (DYS390=23) = 5 (14.7%)

Asturias (n=20)

I1 = 1 (5%)
I2b1 = 0 (0%)
R1b3 S21 (DYS390=23) = 2 (10%)


Basque Country (n=116)

I1 = 1 (0.85%)
I2b1 = 0 (0%)
R1b3 S21 (DYS390=23) = 14 (12%)


Catalonia (n=80)

I1 = 0 (0%)
I2b1 = 0 (0%)
R1b3 S21 (DYS390=23) = 5 (6.25%)


Castilla La Mancha (n=63)

I1 = 0 (0%)
I2b1 = 0 (0%)
R1b3 S21 (DYS390=23) = 9 (14.2%)


East Andalusia (n=95)

I1 = 0 (0%)
I2b1 = 1 (1%)
R1b3 S21 (DYS390=23) = 8 (8%)


Extremadura (n=52)

I1 = 3 (6%)
I2b1 = 1 (2%)
R1b3 S21 (DYS390=23) = 4 (8%)


Galicia (n=88)

I1 = 4 (4.5%)
I2b1 = 2 (2.2%)
R1b3 S21 (DYS390=23) = 8 (9%)


Northeast Castille (n=31)

I1 = 0 (0%)
I2b1 = 0 (0%)
R1b3 S21 (DYS390=23) = 3 (9.6%)


North Portugal (n=60)

I1 = 0 (0%)
I2b1 = 1 (1.6%)
R1b3 S21 (DYS390=23) = 5 (8.3%)


Northwest Castille (n=100)

I1 = 0 (0%)
I2b1 = 1 (1%)
R1b3 S21 (DYS390=23) = 8 (8%)


South Portugal (n=78)

I1 = 0 (0%)
I2b1 = 0 (0%)
R1b3 S21 (DYS390=23) = 5 (6.4%)


Valencia (n=73)

I1 = 3 (4.1%)
I2b1 = 1 (1.3%)
R1b3 S21 (DYS390=23) = 7 (9.5%)


West Andalusia (n=73)

I1 = 0 (0%)
I2b1 = 1 (1.3%)
R1b3 S21 (DYS390=23) = 7 (9.6%)


Ibiza (n=54)

I1 = 0 (0%)
I2b1 = 0 (0%)
R1b3 S21 (DYS390=23) = 5 (9.2%)


Majorca (n=62)

I1 = 3 (4.8%)
I2b1 = 0 (0%)
R1b3 S21 (DYS390=23) = 6 (9.6%)


Minorca (n=37)

I1 = 0 (0%)
I2b1 = 0 (0%)
R1b3 S21 (DYS390=23) = 4 (10.8%)

So we can see that Germanics (Visigoths in the first place) had an impact on Iberian population, and as I've said, everything above 10% (or 10%) in genetics is an impact on population

We also see that highest HG is always R1b - S21 when it comes about Germanic Y-DNA in Iberia, which is due to explanation that this particular HG carried (spreaded there) FRISTIAN people, Frisians were/are Germanics, but in time of Visigothic empire many consider them to migrated there with Visigoths.

I1 and I2b, today I2a2 is from Suebi, Vandals & Franks on the Iberian gene pool.

[curupira]

^ The most common yDNA in Iberia is R1b-27, which got there before the Romans and Visigoths.

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...g2015114a.html

[Robocop]

Well, while i respect what the Visigoths did historically, the truth is that when they got to Iberia they didn't do anything worth noticing apart from inviting a Muslim invasion from North Africa (the visigoths were at civil war and one of their fractions allied with the moors, the rest is history...). So in the end, their impact in my opinion is very slim.

Trust me, in Archaeological and Cultural way, Visigoths are integral part of Iberia, they built and made a great architectural and other achievements there

In the end, Royal Spanish line during Reconquista was based on Visigothic lineage as much as on pure Iberian, if not more. So if you look at things on that way as well, without Visigoths, maybe today Spain as we know it wouldn't exist.

So those are frequencies for R1b-S21, I1 and I2b? Interesting, but North Portugal and Galicia likely means Suebians instead. And Andalusia likely means Vandals.

Yep.

Indeed, but that West European most likely means something more ancient like Hunter-Gatherers or something, otherwise haplogroups would have different frequencies.

Yeah, but what is I haplogroups in general if not a Paleolithic & Mesolithic relic of pre-Indoeuropean EUROPEAN people who later got Germanized, Slavicized, Romanized etc...

So we came to same thing.

Iberian population of haplogroup I2 (long before this world ever know for ethnics as "germanic or celtic") along with Iberian R1b-DF27 are the oldest Iberians;



So as I've said, considering Northwest European Autosomal DNA you come to the same thing, no matter how do you look on it, Hunter-Gatherers or when ethnics were profiled

^ The most common yDNA in Iberia is R1b-27, which got there before the Romans and Visigoths.

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...g2015114a.html

True and I was just writing about DF27 even before I saw your post lol.

I was talking about R1b-S21 before because we were talking about Germanic influence.