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Thread: Are Bulgarians Eastern Europeans or Southern Europeans?

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    I was blind but now I see Sebastianus Rex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aemilius View Post
    I don't consider Greece western. If Greece is western then Russia is too. The Western civilization is Germanic and Latin, not Hellenic.
    I don't know how it is the terminology over there but in most western countries it is not dissociated the Greek from Roman culture. It is used the term Greco-Roman. The classical civilization wich founded the principles of modern Europe and Western Civilization is Greco-Roman, most historians agree on this...maybe not Albanian historians tough.

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    Unless you speak a Greco-Roman language you're not Southern European

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aemilius View Post
    The prevailing opinion of the academics is that the West borrowed some ideas from Rome which in turn borrowed ideas from Greece. That's it. The Greek "birth" of Western civilization is a Romantic phrase which does not explain well actual history - Charlemagne, France and Holy Roman Empire; they are the ones that gave birth to Western civilization. The proper Latin successors of the Roman Empire as the Eastern Roman Empire became a distant and culturally Eastern, Orthodox and Greek empire.

    The ONLY time the Greeks had any influence in the West was when the Roman Empire was still unified, and the Greeks could travel to Italy, to Gaul, and so forth.

    The Greeks lost that influence when the empire splintered, and the West continued to speak Latin while the East dropped Latin for Greek during Heraclius in the 7th century. The last time the Greeks had significantly influenced the West was in the 15th century, LONG after the founding of the Western civilization, during the Italian Renaissance when some scholars fled to Italy to escape the Ottoman Turks.

    If you deny this, then please name all the peoples that had influence in the founding of Charlemagne's empire; the aftermath of his empire which led to the establishment of France and Holy Roman Empire? No Greeks participated in their creation.

    I repeat this ad nauseum, no Greek man, woman or child contributed to the founding of Western civilization because the Germanic and Latin speakers founded the civilization, not Hellenic speakers who remained detached in Constantinople from the cultural developments and progress in France and Germany.
    Sorry but your whole post shows ignorance about Greek history

    First of all at least for the last 190 years the fact that Greece is exclusively western influenced is not even debatable, and no eastern influence seems to remain in any way in Greek society and way of life

    2)Greece was for 300 years part of the Frankish and venetian ruled "Latin empire". If we estimate the eastern-western conquest over greeks during the last 1000 years, western rule had more duaration, even though not significantly more.most of Greece was part of the ottoman empire, but not as a whole, many parts were not, as for the rest,they were for almost 50% of the years compare to south slavs and albania. but this is not even an argument, as long as for example, UK occupied India, this didn;t make India a non south asian country. And what about Spain. It was occupied by arabs but nobody consider it as less western than any other European country. As for easter Roman empire, it is not classified as "eastern European" meaning related to slavs etc. by any scholar.



    3) Greeks founded the post-medieval western European civilization, google "Greek emigre scholars". Modern western culture is not considered the continuety of medieval western

    this doesn't meant that Greece has not eastern aspects, te way Austria and Germany have eastern aspects too. but it's still predominantly western, as most of authors agree, and that's not because of the ancient Greece, but because Greece has always been part of the west
    Last edited by brennus dux gallorum; 09-16-2016 at 12:16 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sebastianus Rex View Post
    I don't know how it is the terminology over there but in most western countries it is not dissociated the Greek from Roman culture. It is used the term Greco-Roman. The classical civilization wich founded the principles of modern Europe and Western Civilization is Greco-Roman, most historians agree on this...maybe not Albanian historians tough.
    Too many people look at Greece romantically because of how the Roman Empire borrowed some cultural elements from there. If I remember history correctly, it was Rome who conquered Greece, not the other way around. The Western Civilization was always Latin-speaking, not Greek-speaking. Was Greek ever an administrative or legal language of Rome? Never. It was always Latin. The Eastern Roman Empire was still ruled by the Latins until the 7th century when the empire adopted Greek as the primary language, and it became Greek from that point on. They ceased to be Roman or part of the West. Why do you think the Pope never truly recognized the authority of Constantinople and chose to crown Charlemagne instead? They saw the Greeks as a culturally alien people, unfit to continue the Roman Empire. The Greeks have more in common with the Russians as far as culture is concerned, and in turn, the Bulgarians.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Aemilius View Post
    Too many people look at Greece romantically because of how the Roman Empire borrowed some cultural elements from there. If I remember history correctly, it was Rome who conquered Greece, not the other way around. The Western Civilization was always Latin-speaking, not Greek-speaking. Was Greek ever an administrative or legal language of Rome? Never. It was always Latin. The Eastern Roman Empire was still ruled by the Latins until the 7th century when the empire adopted Greek as the primary language, and it became Greek from that point on. They ceased to be Roman or part of the West. Why do you think the Pope never truly recognized the authority of Constantinople and chose to crown Charlemagne instead? They saw the Greeks as a culturally alien people, unfit to continue the Roman Empire. The Greeks have more in common with the Russians as far as culture is concerned, and in turn, the Bulgarians.
    sorry but in which century are you stuck? Because we are talking about Greece of 2016, which is the result of 4000 years history, and no, the people you are talking to are not idiots to see everything romantically and you the smart one who knows the truth.

    In the past, there were periods that Greece was totaly western, and periods that it was the place where west and east colides, but then again never eastern

    Greece, in 2016 is western because it has decided to be so since early 19th century, now we are in 21st

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    If Croatia is southern Europe, Bulgaria definitely is. Croatia should not be considered southern Europe honestly..

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    Quote Originally Posted by brennus dux gallorum View Post
    Sorry but your whole post shows ignorance about Greek history
    Ok?

    First of all at least for the last 190 years the fact that Greece is exclusively western influenced is not even debatable, and no eastern influence seems to remain in any way in Greek society and way of life
    I'm not debating the Westernization of Greece, but the notion that the Greeks founded Western civilization. Which, of course, is a ridiculous notion. The Roman Empire made possible the Western civilization, and the Germanic and Latin speakers birthed it with Charlemagne's Empire and progressive developments.

    2) most of Greece was part of the ottoman empire, but not as a whole, many parts were not, as for the rest,they were for almost 50% of the years compare to south slavs and albania. Before the ottoman empire it was for almost the same duration part of the Frankish ruled "Latin empire". If we estimate the eastern-western conquest over greeks during the last 1000 years, western rule had more duaration, even though not significantly more. but this ius not even an argument, as long as for example, UK occupied India, this didn;t make India a non south asian country
    Thanks again for proving to me how necessary it is to be ruled by the Latin-speakers for the Greeks to remain "Western" because they founded the Western civilization; not the Greeks. The Greek East was destroyed by the Arabs and Persians, the Greek possessions in Europe were obliterated by the Romans... you had been always a Roman protectorate then. When you regained control with the fall of Rome and the adoption of Greek in the 7th century, you only showed how culturally different the Greeks truly were in comparison to the Latin-speakers. They created a fusion of Romance and Germanic cultures, therefore gave birth to Western civilization as we know it today.

    3) Greeks founded the post-medieval western European civilization, google "Greek emigre scholars". Modern western culture is not considered the continuety of medieval western
    Yes, it is. Don't be ridiculous. The medieval scholars did not change the trajectory of that the Western civilization so to be founded by a few fleeing scholars from Constantinople.


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    and talking about latin and Greek speaking




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    Quote Originally Posted by brennus dux gallorum View Post
    sorry but in which century are you stuck? Because we are talking about Greece of 2016, which is the result of 4000 years history, and no, the people you are talking to are not idiots to see everything romantically and you the smart one who knows the truth.

    In the past, there were periods that Greece was totaly western, and periods that it was the place where west and east colides, but then again never eastern

    Greece, in 2016 is western because it has decided to be so since early 19th century, now we are in 21st
    Alright, so Greece was Westernized. That's my original argument. And even so, the Greeks still share many things in common with other Balkan peoples who also share plenty with other Eastern Europeans. You have been a liberal democracy for much longer than the rest of the Balkans, yet common Balkan problems are present; nepotism, and kleptocracy, etc... lovely Greek words adopted into English to describe the worst elements of Eastern mentality!


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    Quote Originally Posted by Aemilius View Post
    Ok?



    I'm not debating the Westernization of Greece, but the notion that the Greeks founded Western civilization. Which, of course, is a ridiculous notion. The Roman Empire made possible the Western civilization, and the Germanic and Latin speakers birthed it with Charlemagne's Empire and progressive developments.
    in the first post you said that Greece is not western, now you change it

    Yes, it is. Don't be ridiculous. The medieval scholars did not change the trajectory of that the Western civilization so to be founded by a few fleeing scholars from Constantinople.

    nope, but they participated to the creation of modern western civilization bringing Greek knowledge, and you have to consider that back then Greece was under Franks and venice, not Constantinopole

    I repeat, all these facts have formed the modern Greek identity, which is undesputable predominantly western

    Quote Originally Posted by Aemilius View Post
    Alright, so Greece was Westernized. That's my original argument. And even so, the Greeks still share many things in common with other Balkan peoples who also share plenty with other Eastern Europeans. You have been a liberal democracy for much longer than the rest of the Balkans, yet common Balkan problems are present; nepotism, and kleptocracy, etc... lovely Greek words adopted into English to describe the worst elements of Eastern mentality!
    Greece has more differences than similarities with balkans so it can't be considered part of this region, on contrary it shares more in common with neighboring mediterranean countries, like Italy or Malta

    not to mention that the first contacts of modern Greece with balkans were in 90's

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