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Thread: Turanids...

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    Senior Member Tomasz's Avatar
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    Question Turanids...

    First of all, I want to say, that I was always more familiar with typically European races. It's because I am European and I am more interested in my own kind. That's why my knowledge about types of non-European origin is very limited. Keep this on mind and forgive me any trivial mistakes.

    When I was browsing Richard McCulloh's website called Racial Compact, I found statistics about "estimated racial composition and Nordish percentage of indigenous European populations". Data for Hungary was very interesting for me, quote:
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard McCulloh
    Hungary = 35% Neo-Danubian (most common in the northeast), 25% Turanid (of Magyar derivation), 20% Dinaric (most common in the southwest), 15% Alpine (most common in the south), 2% Nordic, 2% Noric, 1% East Mediterranean = 39% Nordish (2% central and 37% periphery types)
    Beside usage of term "Neo-Danubian", which is basically not viable, one thing caught my eye. I've used bolded font, to indicate it.

    Judging from this fragment, Magyars were Turanids in race. And those people, who resemble such type today, are derived from these Finno-Ugrian invaders. I wasn't too familiar with such "exotic" (for me) racial types, so I googled it. That's, what I found on Wikipedia (I know, not the best source of information):
    Quote Originally Posted by Wikipedia
    Turanid is a term intended to cover populations of Central Asia associated with the spread of the Turanian languages, that is the combination of the Uralic and Altaic families (hence also "Ural-Altaic race"), in human genetics, physical anthropology and historically in scientific racism.

    The latter usage implies the existence of a Turanid racial type or "minor race", subtype of the Europid race with Mongoloid admixtures, situated at the boundary of the distribution of the Mongolid and Europid "great races". The idea of a Turanid race came to play a role of some significance in Pan-Turkism or "Turanism" in the late 19th to 20th century. A "Turkish race" was proposed as an Europid subtype in European literature of the period.
    This quote implies that Turanids are some intermediate form between Caucasoids and Mongoloids, which was probably derived from mixing between Caucasoid and Mongoloid populations, with former element being rather dominant.
    It also implies, that this race is typical for Turkish peoples.

    It seems that Richard McCulloh suggests that 25% of Hungarians still resemble their Magyar ancestors, having these quasi-Mongoloid, Turanid traits. I asked about it my friends from Hungary. One confirmed such revelations - said that some Hungarians indeed look slightly "Mongoloid" and are of Magyar origin. Other friend from Hungary on the other hand, said that this "Mongoloid" element is long-time gone and dead. So I had to find another source of information.

    I've turned to classic book written by Carleton Stevens Coon called "The Races Of Europe". I've discovered here some additional explantation to this "Magyar derived" 25% of population, namely:
    Quote Originally Posted by Carleton Stevens Coon
    Bartucz finds about 20 per cent of the Magyars to show evidence of Asiatic Turkish blood, in the relatively non-mongoloid sense, while about 5 per cent manifest clearly recognizable mongoloid features. These Asiatic elements are not evenly distributed, but are concentrated in the purer Hungarian pastoral population, while the Turkish element is said to be especially visible in the nobility. The 5 per cent which remains after Bartucz�s partitionment must include Nordics and Norics, with the latter also forming part of the Dinaric allotment, as well as a few brunet Mediterraneans
    On the other hand, in SNPA glossary, under "Turanid" entry, it's written:
    Quote Originally Posted by SNPA
    Central Asiatic type, named (and later renamed) by Deniker (type touranien). In von Eickstedt's typology, Pamirids signify relatively unmixed Turanids, whereas Aralids are Turanids showing Mongolid influence of the Tungid variety. For some anthropologists, the term still applies in a less specific fashion to Europid-Mongolid mixed populations of Central Asia.
    There are 2 conclusions to my mind:
    a) Pamirids are those "20 percent of Magyars" which have Turkish influences much more pronounced,
    b) Aralids are those "5 percent of Magyars" which have much more Mongoloid influences.



    Could someone explain me exactly, how it really was with those Magyars and present-day Hungarians in terms of racial makeup and extra-European admixture?

    How much people in Hungary show traits of non-European origin, how strong this element is?

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    Progressive Collectivist Agrippa's Avatar
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    The element is much weaker in reality because the Nationalist Hungarians tried to prove their "Asiatic ancestry" by highly overestimating the real Mongoloid/Aralid influence, for which they used a wide variety of brachycephalic variants no other anthropologist would have considered "Turanid", yet really Mongoloid influenced. More on that later, I'm in hurry right now.

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    Senior Member Tomasz's Avatar
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    Okay, when you'll have time, feel free to add more info.

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    Professional Racial anthropologist
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agrippa View Post
    The element is much weaker in reality because the Nationalist Hungarians tried to prove their "Asiatic ancestry" by highly overestimating the real Mongoloid/Aralid influence, for which they used a wide variety of brachycephalic variants no other anthropologist would have considered "Turanid", yet really Mongoloid influenced. More on that later, I'm in hurry right now.
    Also genetics have pretty much proven that majority of Hungarians are just central Europeans.

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    Progressive Collectivist Agrippa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pallantides View Post
    Also genetics have pretty much proven that majority of Hungarians are just central Europeans.
    Of course, genetics made a final end to this "Magyar-Turanid" continuation theory.

    The Pamirids = Europid part are rather brachycephalised Irano-Mediterranoids anyway which approach a Dinaro-Alpinoid spectrum.

    The Aralid = Mongoloid part is mostly the result of a mixture between Tungid and the various Europids of Central Asia.

    Here Aralids (Tungid w. Europid):


    The first one is a good example for a Pamirid (real Europid Turanids):

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    Quote Originally Posted by Agrippa View Post
    Of course, genetics made a final end to this "Magyar-Turanid" continuation theory.

    The Pamirids = Europid part are rather brachycephalised Irano-Mediterranoids anyway which approach a Dinaro-Alpinoid spectrum.

    The Aralid = Mongoloid part is mostly the result of a mixture between Tungid and the various Europids of Central Asia.

    Here Aralids (Tungid w. Europid):


    The first one is a good example for a Pamirid (real Europid Turanids):
    Is Pamirid 100% Europoid? How classify a Central Asian with dominance of Europoid components and slight mongoloid admixture? Is he "Pamirid"? Or slight mongoloid admixture automatically makes him "Aralid"?

    Pamirids themselves are so different ---some are Asian Alpines and others look Irano-Afghan. Pictures of Pamirids you posted, show some slight mongoloid features.

    For example how will you classify President of Uzbekistan Islam Karimov
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Islamkarimov_Uz.jpg
    http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Файл:Is...ov_cropped.jpg

    (Islam Karimov looks so similar to Robert Gates, just compare

    http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Файл:Is...ov_cropped.jpg
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ro...rait,_2006.jpg)


    How to classify Rashid Dostum? Pamirid or Aralid?
    http://gfx.aftonbladet-cdn.se/multim...368_21235w.jpg
    http://i.cdn.turner.com/cnn/interact....dostum.gi.jpg

    ANd how to classify this guy from Tajikistan?
    http://foto.mail.ru/mail/tajik11/_myphoto/1.html
    http://foto.mail.ru/mail/tajik11/_myphoto/3.html
    http://foto.mail.ru/mail/tajik11/_myphoto/5.html
    http://foto.mail.ru/mail/tajik11/_myphoto/2.html

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    New Member rockstar's Avatar
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    yes, its true we Hungarians are the direct descendents of the Huns, however, in the 12 century most of us were exterminated (about 80% of our total population), so king bla the 4th called in many slavs and germans to repopulate Hungary. so now most Hungrians have lost their asiatic features.

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    Veteran Member aherne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agrippa View Post
    Of course, genetics made a final end to this "Magyar-Turanid" continuation theory.

    The Pamirids = Europid part are rather brachycephalised Irano-Mediterranoids anyway which approach a Dinaro-Alpinoid spectrum.

    The Aralid = Mongoloid part is mostly the result of a mixture between Tungid and the various Europids of Central Asia.

    Here Aralids (Tungid w. Europid):


    The first one is a good example for a Pamirid (real Europid Turanids):
    Hungarians can confirm these people do not look like hungarians AT ALL. Mongoloid element among Hungarians, usually diluted into turanid form, is due to heavy mixture with Turkic peoples before entering Hungary, so much that out of types inherited from early Magyars, Turanid seems more common than Uralic. Hungarians from Transylvania seem the most pure, since they haven't mixed with Romanians at all until very recent times, mainly due to religious differences. Hungarians of plains seem much more mixed with German and Slavic. A quarter even have German/Slavic last names, so their ancestors were recent non-Hungarians. Very few Hungarians have Romanian last names, on the other hand, since very little admixture has taken place until 20th century. If you truly want to see true Magyars, visit the Szekeler ethnic island.

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    Progressive Collectivist Agrippa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alka View Post
    Is Pamirid 100% Europoid? How classify a Central Asian with dominance of Europoid components and slight mongoloid admixture? Is he "Pamirid"? Or slight mongoloid admixture automatically makes him "Aralid"?
    Genetically Pamirids have oftentimes slight Mongoloid admixture too, but that's beyond recognition racially in most cases. Obviously the borderline is fluent for Turanids between Pamirid and Aralid.

    Pamirids themselves are so different ---some are Asian Alpines and others look Irano-Afghan. Pictures of Pamirids you posted, show some slight mongoloid features.
    the first one is the best Pamirid standard type example imo.

    For example how will you classify President of Uzbekistan Islam Karimov
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Islamkarimov_Uz.jpg
    http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Файл:Is...ov_cropped.jpg
    Pred. Asian Alpinoid going after those pictures.

    Pamirid mostly.

    Indo-Pamirid + Tungid (Mongolid).

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    What is Indo-Pamirid?
    And which of his features are Tungid?

    IMO this guy looks like an Asian Alpine- the type described by C.Coon
    http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/chapter-XII19.htm

    And how Alpines appeared in the heart of Asia........?:mmmm:

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