Italians vs. Chuvash: Who is whiter?

**Deusex99** · 09-06-2021, 08:29 AM

Loschbour and Yamnaya have an Asian shift and their phenotype was completely different from we usually imagine as White. Whiteness Is primarly measured by genetic distance from NW Europeans and pigmentation.

**~~Komintasavalta~~** · 09-06-2021, 06:44 PM

Originally Posted by Deusex99

Loschbour and Yamnaya have an Asian shift and their phenotype was completely different from we usually imagine as White. Whiteness Is primarly measured by genetic distance from NW Europeans and pigmentation.

Loschbour doesn't. And Anatolia is also Asia. All the wog members on this forum are in denial about how woggy EEF is. Just think about how big a difference in wogginess is produced by a difference in 10 percentage points of EEF admixture between North Germanics and West Germanics, or between West Germanics and northern Romance populations. Then extrapolate it by 4 times to get an idea of what Europeans with no EEF admixture would look like.

Actually it could be that EHG were more white than WHG, and f2 distance to EHG might be a better measure of whiteness than f2 distance to WHG. EHG is the main indigenous European component in modern whites. There aren't even any WHG samples from Northern Europe, apart from the Baltic States (if you count North Russia as Northern Europe but not the British Isles).

These EHG samples had fairly low SNP count, so I don't know if it makes sense to calculate f2 distance to them, but Chuvashes were closer to them than North Germanics:

f2 distance to Russia_HG_Samara:
.1364 Mordovian
.1364 Russian
.1367 Estonian
.1367 Belarusian
.1368 Finnish
.1368 Ukrainian
.1368 Tatar_Kazan
.1369 Chuvash
.1370 Tatar_Mishar
.1374 Lithuanian
.1375 Icelandic
.1377 English
.1377 Norwegian
.1378 Bashkir
.1380 Udmurt
.1386 French
.1388 Croatian
.1401 Spanish
.1409 Saami.DG
.1411 Italian_North
.1412 Greek
.1421 Sicilian
.1426 Italian_South
.1429 Maltese
.1440 Lebanese
.1462 Sardinian

f2 distance to Russia_HG_Karelia:
.1180 Estonian
.1181 Mordovian
.1182 Chuvash
.1182 Russian
.1184 Finnish
.1184 Tatar_Kazan
.1189 Belarusian
.1190 Bashkir
.1191 Lithuanian
.1192 Ukrainian
.1192 Tatar_Mishar
.1192 Norwegian
.1197 Udmurt
.1199 Icelandic
.1201 English
.1207 French
.1212 Croatian
.1217 Saami.DG
.1224 Spanish
.1231 Italian_North
.1235 Greek
.1242 Italian_South
.1247 Sicilian
.1251 Maltese
.1265 Lebanese
.1281 Sardinian

**Norb** · 09-06-2021, 06:46 PM

who has more R1a?

**~~Arūnas~~** · 09-06-2021, 06:54 PM

Originally Posted by Norb

who has more R1a?

VUR https://www.eupedia.com/europe/europ...logroups.shtml

**Dominator** · 09-06-2021, 07:39 PM

Chuvash are the descendants of the Huns. The last guys in their time misbehaved in Italy. It's strange if Italians don't have Hunnic heritage

**викторслава** · 09-13-2021, 06:12 PM

chuvash people are whiter than south italians for sure

**Zanzibar** · 09-18-2021, 08:00 AM

Originally Posted by викторслава

chuvash people are whiter than south italians for sure

Well most Euros are closer to South Italians than they are to Chuvash are according to G25, so I'm not sure about that. Most Euros have high EEF ancestry which make them closer to South Italians than Chuvashes who have much lower Neolithic. Also the significant Siberian ancestry in Chuvashes along with likely some Turkic and Iranic admixture also makes them more genetically divergent from most Euros than South Italians do.

Distance to: English
0.10450353 Italian_Marche
0.11555349 Italian_Molise
0.11685390 Italian_Abruzzo
0.11913637 Sicilian_West
0.12413657 Italian_Apulia
0.12566080 Italian_Basilicata
0.12739331 Sicilian_East
0.13137988 Maltese
0.13495718 Italian_Calabria
0.19112287 Chuvash

Distance to: Swedish
0.12243904 Italian_Marche
0.13273287 Italian_Molise
0.13425018 Italian_Abruzzo
0.13600586 Sicilian_West
0.14115996 Italian_Apulia
0.14238916 Italian_Basilicata
0.14455674 Sicilian_East
0.14792139 Maltese
0.15179670 Italian_Calabria
0.17969626 Chuvash

Distance to: Lithuanian_VZ
0.16514399 Italian_Marche
0.17320387 Italian_Molise
0.17480581 Italian_Abruzzo
0.17565373 Sicilian_West
0.18002867 Italian_Apulia
0.18063084 Chuvash
0.18149455 Italian_Basilicata
0.18384391 Sicilian_East
0.18678581 Maltese
0.19015096 Italian_Calabria
Distance to: Ukrainian
0.12954563 Italian_Marche
0.13709239 Italian_Molise
0.13883726 Italian_Abruzzo
0.14014558 Sicilian_West
0.14413032 Italian_Apulia
0.14527344 Italian_Basilicata
0.14819150 Sicilian_East
0.15081878 Maltese
0.15406687 Italian_Calabria
0.17097408 Chuvash

Distance to: Russian_Belgorod
0.13240718 Italian_Marche
0.13969019 Italian_Molise
0.14144268 Italian_Abruzzo
0.14302690 Sicilian_West
0.14668147 Italian_Apulia
0.14780713 Italian_Basilicata
0.15096479 Sicilian_East
0.15383131 Maltese
0.15659280 Italian_Calabria
0.16903143 Chuvash

Distance to: Russian_Voronez
0.13669082 Italian_Marche
0.14413995 Italian_Molise
0.14602216 Italian_Abruzzo
0.14681511 Sicilian_West
0.15120308 Italian_Apulia
0.15242788 Italian_Basilicata
0.15481420 Sicilian_East
0.15770351 Maltese
0.16104448 Italian_Calabria
0.16722733 Chuvash

Distance to: Cossack_Ukrainian
0.13450674 Italian_Marche
0.14232313 Italian_Molise
0.14392538 Italian_Abruzzo
0.14493544 Sicilian_West
0.14943054 Italian_Apulia
0.15062984 Italian_Basilicata
0.15343389 Sicilian_East
0.15592266 Maltese
0.15945043 Italian_Calabria
0.16611622 Chuvash

Only some NE Euros are slightly closer to Chuvash than South Italians because they have much higher hunter gatherer and much lower EEF. Also some groups like Finns, Estonians, Northern Russians also have Siberian admixture which pulls them closer to Chuvashes than South Italians.

Distance to: Finnish
0.14117864 Chuvash
0.15963232 Italian_Marche
0.16737962 Italian_Molise
0.16968904 Italian_Abruzzo
0.16971041 Sicilian_West
0.17557151 Italian_Apulia
0.17626327 Italian_Basilicata
0.17811037 Sicilian_East
0.18018070 Maltese
0.18505497 Italian_Calabria

Distance to: Finnish_East
0.12697437 Chuvash
0.17504798 Italian_Marche
0.18192951 Italian_Molise
0.18358775 Sicilian_West
0.18436495 Italian_Abruzzo
0.18994253 Italian_Apulia
0.19026930 Italian_Basilicata
0.19206294 Sicilian_East
0.19333764 Maltese
0.19859623 Italian_Calabria

Distance to: Estonian
0.16437836 Italian_Marche
0.16630835 Chuvash
0.17224255 Italian_Molise
0.17421834 Italian_Abruzzo
0.17453626 Sicilian_West
0.17985550 Italian_Apulia
0.18082613 Italian_Basilicata
0.18308924 Sicilian_East
0.18535244 Maltese
0.18964153 Italian_Calabria

Distance to: Latvian
0.17530515 Italian_Marche
0.18028483 Chuvash
0.18302652 Italian_Molise
0.18464099 Italian_Abruzzo
0.18520718 Sicilian_West
0.18997960 Italian_Apulia
0.19108181 Italian_Basilicata
0.19377045 Sicilian_East
0.19581681 Maltese
0.19978546 Italian_Calabria

Distance to: Lithuanian_PZ
0.17274169 Italian_Marche
0.18095363 Italian_Molise
0.18235269 Chuvash
0.18236163 Italian_Abruzzo
0.18268599 Sicilian_West
0.18761581 Italian_Apulia
0.18907218 Italian_Basilicata
0.19127861 Sicilian_East
0.19375253 Maltese
0.19764786 Italian_Calabria

Distance to: Russian_Tver
0.14713689 Italian_Marche
0.15401604 Italian_Molise
0.15485156 Chuvash
0.15606939 Italian_Abruzzo
0.15687791 Sicilian_West
0.16130968 Italian_Apulia
0.16203361 Italian_Basilicata
0.16506855 Sicilian_East
0.16687805 Maltese
0.17058172 Italian_Calabria

Distance to: Cossack_Kuban
0.14529933 Italian_Marche
0.14605465 Chuvash
0.15154070 Italian_Molise
0.15411439 Italian_Abruzzo
0.15503702 Sicilian_West
0.15958900 Italian_Basilicata
0.15964672 Italian_Apulia
0.16332573 Sicilian_East
0.16515361 Maltese
0.16826948 Italian_Calabria

**~~Komintasavalta~~** · 09-18-2021, 09:49 AM

Calabrians are so woggy that on G25, even Serbs and Monteniggers are closer to Norwegians than to Calabrians. And even a few Indians like Ror and Jatt_Pathak are closer to Norwegians than to Calabrians.

If you want to compare other populations, plots like this are really easy to make yourself:

1. Download R from here: https://cran.r-project.org.
2. Open the R console and run: `install.packages(c("tidyverse","ggforce"),repos=" https://cloud.r-project.org")`
3. Paste the code below to the R console:

Spoiler!

Code:

library(tidyverse)
library(ggforce)

t=read.csv("https://drive.google.com/uc?export=download&id=1wZr-UOve0KUKo_Qbgeo27m-CQncZWb8y",row.names=1)

xpop="Italian_Calabria"
ypop="Norwegian"

d=as.data.frame(as.matrix(dist(t)))
xy=d[,c(xpop,ypop)]
names(xy)=c("x","y")
lim=.34 # show only populations with G25 distance below limit to x and y populations
pick=rownames(t)[xy$x<lim&xy$y<lim]
xy=xy[pick,]
d=d[pick,pick]

seg=lapply(1:3,function(i)apply(d,1,function(x)unlist(xy[names(sort(x)[i]),],use.names=F))%>%t%>%cbind(xy))%>%do.call(rbind,.)%>%setNames(paste0("V",1:4))

expand=.015
lims=c(-expand,max(apply(xy,2,range))+expand)

xy$k=as.factor(cutree(hclust(as.dist(d)),24))
# xy$k=as.factor(kmeans(as.dist(t),16)$cluster) # use K-means instead of hierarchical clustering

brk=.02
lab=sub("^0","",sprintf("%.3f",seq(0,1,brk)))
lab[1]="0"

ggplot(xy,aes(x,y))+
geom_abline(linetype="dashed",color="gray80",size=.3)+
geom_segment(data=seg,aes(x=V1,y=V2,xend=V3,yend=V4),color="gray50",size=.1)+
ggforce::geom_mark_hull(aes(color=k,fill=k),concavity=1000,radius=unit(.15,"cm"),expand=unit(.15,"cm"),alpha=.2,size=.15)+
# geom_polygon(data=xy%>%group_by(k)%>%slice(chull(x,y)),alpha=.2,aes(color=k,fill=k),size=.3)+ # draw convex hulls without rounded corners
geom_point(aes(color=k),size=.5)+
geom_text(aes(color=k),label=rownames(xy),size=2,vjust=-.7)+
# ggrepel::geom_text_repel(aes(color=k),label=rownames(xy),size=2,max.overlaps=Inf,force=2,segment.size=.2,min.segment.length=.2,box.padding=.05)+ # avoid overlapping text labels
coord_cartesian(xlim=lims,ylim=lims,expand=F)+
scale_x_continuous(breaks=seq(0,1,brk),labels=lab)+
scale_y_continuous(breaks=seq(0,1,brk),labels=lab)+
labs(x=paste("G25 distance to",xpop),y=paste("G25 distance to",ypop))+
theme(
  axis.text=element_text(size=6),
  axis.text.y=element_text(angle=90,vjust=1,hjust=.5),
  axis.ticks=element_blank(),
  axis.ticks.length=unit(0,"cm"),
  axis.title=element_text(size=8),
  legend.position="none",
  panel.background=element_rect(fill="white"),
  panel.border=element_rect(color="gray80",fill=NA,size=.6),
  panel.grid.major=element_line(color="gray92",size=.2),
  plot.background=element_rect(fill="white")
)

ggsave("a.png",width=8,height=8)

**michal3141** · 09-18-2021, 10:13 AM

Remarkable plot Komintasavalta!
Very nice way to visualize genetic distances to two populations!

Even some Spaniards seem to be closer to Norwegians than Southern Italians.

**Sandis** · 09-18-2021, 10:33 AM

There is no reason to lump together Northern Italians and Southern Italians because they are quite different (if we exclude recent migration from Southern Italy to Northern Italy). Sardinians generally are in their own cluster.
By Y-Dna data Southern Italians have E1b1b (Balkan connection), also J2 and R1b-ht35 (Anatolian farmer connection)
Read here about Southern Italian (Apulian, Calabrian, Sicilian) genetics. and about their connection to Balkans:

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-01802-4

Greek dialects map in Southern Italy: