Bosniak music off topic

[RandoBloom]

I have not said, nor implied that Serbian nationalism is more or less good than any other. As said, I stand to what I have said, Yugoslav nationalism is the one that would unify us fully. I keep claiming that due to religious based identification that we can not know who shares descent from ancient White Croatia or White Serbia, thus, the absolute truth remains being a Yugoslav, as there is always the chance of being wrong when you claim that you are a Croat or Serb, due to said reason.
If you do not see the apparent US involvement in destroying Yugoslavia, then you are naive.

Of course, that is why you, a Yugoslav nationalist defended Serb nationalism regularly while attacking other nationalisms. Yugoslavism is nothing but a stepping stone for Serbification. US involvement? Where was it? And why? The poor Yankees felt threatened by the Great powerful Serbia and their Serbdom?
If only Milosevic was in power for 6 more days, USA would be destroyed, am I right or am I right ?

What other slavs think about Bosnian muslims is a product of what they had done to get involved in their ethnic group. You have to understand the lack of information at the time of the war, so it was natural when someone saw a mainly muslim force fighting non-muslims in a war of separation inside Europe to be against it, what did you think they would think?
Truth remains that muslims in Bosnia have never done anything to better up their reputation amongst their fellow kind.

What muslims are you talking about?

And it is so nice that you try support countries which would never support your own stances. You do understand that the US has shown to serve corporate interests, and that the German government just follows along? But no, you are surely one of those who believe that socialism was the utter evil and that this system is way better. Hope you don't miss your daily dose of VOX magazin.

Socialism was evil and this system is better. US might not be perfect but at least it wouldn't pick Serbs over us. That's enough for me.

Then again, what you believe has utterly marginal support from your own fellow muslim population, so I am not bothered.
No one has to present Bosniaks as Slavs as that is already something the whole world believes. You also say you don't care how muslim bosnians are seen, yet that is, today, utterly the same thing as the current use of Bosniak (as we saw in the census propaganda).

And if you think there would be war, who would fight it and what for?

It is far from the same thing. Don't be offended and dont offend me with your use of muslim in regards to my people. It pains you greatly that we are not just a religious group I understand, but show some respect.

Serbs will fight to defend against us trying to stop them from separating of course. Serbia will also provide support in weapons and "volunteers"

[Blackfyre]

Of course, that is why you, a Yugoslav nationalist defended Serb nationalism regularly while attacking other nationalisms. Yugoslavism is nothing but a stepping stone for Serbification. US involvement? Where was it? And why? The poor Yankees felt threatened by the Great powerful Serbia and their Serbdom?
If only Milosevic was in power for 6 more days, USA would be destroyed, am I right or am I right ?




What muslims are you talking about?


Socialism was evil and this system is better. US might not be perfect but at least it wouldn't pick Serbs over us. That's enough for me.



It is far from the same thing. Don't be offended and dont offend me with your use of muslim in regards to my people. It pains you greatly that we are not just a religious group I understand, but show some respect.

Serbs will fight to defend against us trying to stop them from separating of course. Serbia will also provide support in weapons and "volunteers"

The US involvement was seen mainly in two cases:
1) the USA forbid the government of the RBiH to cooperate with Iran, and forced them to work with Saudi Arabia. While shi'a Iran supplied only weapons (which propably would have equalised both sides over time, and ensure maybe a locked front and less crimes, or, in a worse scenario, ensured more war crimes on the non-serb side to rival the serb side), the Saudis sent not material but fighters. Extremist fighters which performed crimes, further destablised the situation and brought radicalism.
2) the USA prevented Alija from signing at least one early peace. Every peace which was refused was more beneficial than the last one we got, if not by the means of state organisation, than at least by the fact that the war would have ended in 1992. The USA, had an interest to keep the war going as it seems.

Funny how you keep defending the USA, yet seem to forget that they were the ones which stopped you from attacking Banja Luka, isn't that your little dream? Isn't it fun how the USA bombed Belgrade because of Albanian terrorist separatists, but did not care what the Serb forces did to Bosnia and Croatia?
To quote Kissinger: The USA does not have allies nor enemies, only interests. Guess what will happen once you don't meet their interests anylonger?

So, the system where the economy was controlled by the nation is worse than a system where shepherd who have 8 years of elementary school became rich? Brilliant.

It does not pain me, but the failure to gather support for bosniakhood amongst non-muslims is evident, you can blame it on the SDA elite and slogans like "Nationality: Bosniak, Religion: Islam" and so on.

Further more, you try to reduce my arguments to make me seem like a fan of Slobo, the VRS or what do I know, to which you can not find a solid base, as I am not, so yeah.

[Methmatician]

Yeah right. You can't think of any who would pick Bosnia so yo avoid it altogether.

Iran would (and has). Are we Aryans now?

Religious nationalism and ethnonationalism surely have, proper nationalims not tho,

They're both 'proper' forms of nationalism.

as it can only be there to unite the people within a nation for the common good. Nationalism is, all in all, a mere self-identification with the nation, the sturggle to uphold it's culture and achievments while also taking pride in it.

Nationalism almost always destroys minority cultures that you claim are being protected. Look at France, Germany and Italy. When they're not doing so they force those minority cultures to sacrifice certain things for the good of the dominant culture (e.g. America).

[RandoBloom]

The US involvement was seen mainly in two cases:
1) the USA forbid the government of the RBiH to cooperate with Iran, and forced them to work with Saudi Arabia. While shi'a Iran supplied only weapons (which propably would have equalised both sides over time, and ensure maybe a locked front and less crimes, or, in a worse scenario, ensured more war crimes on the non-serb side to rival the serb side), the Saudis sent not material but fighters. Extremist fighters which performed crimes, further destablised the situation and brought radicalism.

Iran and Pakistan were key allies during the war and were not prevented from supporting us. Iranian officer training and Pakistani ATGM's turned the tide of the war. Still the question remains how did that destroy Yugoslavia?

2) the USA prevented Alija from signing at least one early peace. Every peace which was refused was more beneficial than the last one we got, if not by the means of state organisation, than at least by the fact that the war would have ended in 1992. The USA, had an interest to keep the war going as it seems.

No peace is beneficial if it means easier disolution of Bosnia. What we got now is more than we could have ever gained. We have direct control over 51% of Bosnia, 55% if you count Brcko in which we are a majority.

Funny how you keep defending the USA, yet seem to forget that they were the ones which stopped you from attacking Banja Luka, isn't that your little dream? Isn't it fun how the USA bombed Belgrade because of Albanian terrorist separatists, but did not care what the Serb forces did to Bosnia and Croatia?
To quote Kissinger: The USA does not have allies nor enemies, only interests. Guess what will happen once you don't meet their interests anylonger?

Banja Luka can always be taken. Serbs have become weaker, not stronger since the war. Meanwhile opposite has been happening for us. Bosniaks are now in a position where we dont need war to win. We win by default if Serbs dont do anything.

And US gave you benefit of the doubt, and believed your claims that you are not criminals, in Vukovar, Bosnia and further. The moment war started in Kosovo it was clear Serbs would commit ethnic cleansing. Thank your leaders for getting bombed.

So, the system where the economy was controlled by the nation is worse than a system where shepherd who have 8 years of elementary school became rich? Brilliant.

It is. In that previous economy my land was taken and my grandfather was left imobilized for the rest of his life by policemen who came to take his land away. Podvelezians had nothing during that state which lived on foreign credit. Now Podvelezians own almost every company in Mostar. It is no one's fault that Shepards have an inkling of capitalism, instead of "educated" people who wait for government handouts and jobs.

It does not pain me, but the failure to gather support for bosniakhood amongst non-muslims is evident, you can blame it on the SDA elite and slogans like "Nationality: Bosniak, Religion: Islam" and so on.

We have support among non muslims for Bosniak nation as evidenced by census. That slogan came in 2013 in regards to Serb push to declare Bosniak muslim, Bosniak religion islam, Bosniak religion islamic as different people in census. People needed clarification in order to avoid Bosniak numerical loss over technicality wether you are Bosniak muslim or Bosniak of Islamic faith.

Further more, you try to reduce my arguments to make me seem like a fan of Slobo, the VRS or what do I know, to which you can not find a solid base, as I am not, so yeah.

You're the one calling him a friendly nickname "Slobo" not me. You are his fan and fan of his idea as long as you support Republic of Srpska.

[Blackfyre]

Iran and Pakistan were key allies during the war and were not prevented from supporting us. Iranian officer training and Pakistani ATGM's turned the tide of the war. Still the question remains how did that destroy Yugoslavia?

It continued the war. There is the possibility that an arms influx would have equalised the sides, leading to less intrusions into civilan territory, leading to less crimes, leading to less crimes in revenge, which is a closed circle. If anything, the exclusion of foreign religious radicals from the war would lead to less escalation.
And like said, their influence over the government in Sarajevo prolonged the war.

To claim that the USA is not involved is like claiming they were not involved in Syria, Iraq, and Libya.

No peace is beneficial if it means easier disolution of Bosnia. What we got now is more than we could have ever gained. We have direct control over 51% of Bosnia, 55% if you count Brcko in which we are a majority.

In the Cultier plan would have made locked the RS to a 44% territorial mass, and ended the war 3 years earlier. It was rejected due to the US pressure on Izetbegović and promises to recognise his republic. So, what is today considered the Federation would be 56% of the landmass.

Banja Luka can always be taken. Serbs have become weaker, not stronger since the war. Meanwhile opposite has been happening for us. Bosniaks are now in a position where we dont need war to win. We win by default if Serbs dont do anything.

And US gave you benefit of the doubt, and believed your claims that you are not criminals, in Vukovar, Bosnia and further. The moment war started in Kosovo it was clear Serbs would commit ethnic cleansing. Thank your leaders for getting bombed.

Oh it was so evident that Serbs would commit ethnic cleansing that the USA helped ethnically cleanse AP Kosovo and Metochia from Serbs?

And you keep saying as if I was an RS subject. I was born and am a Federal subject, as well as having no known closer relative fight in the VRS. That being said, I share no support to any government during the war, nor do I find a reason to.

It is. In that previous economy my land was taken and my grandfather was left imobilized for the rest of his life by policemen who came to take his land away. Podvelezians had nothing during that state which lived on foreign credit. Now Podvelezians own almost every company in Mostar. It is no one's fault that Shepards have an inkling of capitalism, instead of "educated" people who wait for government handouts and jobs.

Here we can see a supporter of the system which lets people buy their education, insert semi-literate people into places of power, while those who studied hard and good either have horrible working conditions or have to leave the country to seek a living.

We have support among non muslims for Bosniak nation as evidenced by census. That slogan came in 2013 in regards to Serb push to declare Bosniak muslim, Bosniak religion islam, Bosniak religion islamic as different people in census. People needed clarification in order to avoid Bosniak numerical loss over technicality wether you are Bosniak muslim or Bosniak of Islamic faith.

So, it are the Serbs who are to blame for your political elites pushing the religious agenda? Sure thing, blame everyone else just not yourselves, that is, your own political elite.

You're the one calling him a friendly nickname "Slobo" not me. You are his fan and fan of his idea as long as you support Republic of Srpska.

So, calling people by a nickname (which everyone uses, but you know that) is equal to supporting them?
Again, I support no war time government, and no, I do not support the RS beyond the capacity that they are the reason why we thankfully don't recognise Kosovo and that they are also the reason why we are not moving towards the EU and NATO faster, as I do believe that the current EU is something we should not join until reformed and made a true European Union and not an American controlled Russophobic neoliberal union, while I do not see the need to at all join NATO.

[RandoBloom]

It continued the war. There is the possibility that an arms influx would have equalised the sides, leading to less intrusions into civilan territory, leading to less crimes, leading to less crimes in revenge, which is a closed circle. If anything, the exclusion of foreign religious radicals from the war would lead to less escalation.

Saudis did bring weapons, their condition for giving it to us was to let them fight. I see no problem with that. Serbs started with war crimes, and if Saudis exterminated every last one of them I would have no problem with that.

And like said, their influence over the government in Sarajevo prolonged the war.

It saved Bosnia. That's all that matters.

To claim that the USA is not involved is like claiming they were not involved in Syria, Iraq, and Libya.

The US involvment in Bosnian war can't be compared to Libya or Syria. Yugoslavia was unimportant the moment the Iron curtain fell. And it remained so ever since. US intervened when it saw that the Serbs are beyond help.

In the Cultier plan would have made locked the RS to a 44% territorial mass, and ended the war 3 years earlier. It was rejected due to the US pressure on Izetbegović and promises to recognise his republic. So, what is today considered the Federation would be 56% of the landmass.

Even if federation was 99% of the landmass in that plan, as long as it keeps a provision for Srpska's independence then it should have been refused.

Oh it was so evident that Serbs would commit ethnic cleansing that the USA helped ethnically cleanse AP Kosovo and Metochia from Serbs?

What did Serbs do when west waited in Vukovar?
What did Serbs do in Foca and Visegrad?
What did Serbs do in Srebrenica?

Every time Serbs took an area they ethnically cleansed it. I guess US should have waited for Albanians to be cleansed before moving in?

Here we can see a supporter of the system which lets people buy their education, insert semi-literate people into places of power, while those who studied hard and good either have horrible working conditions or have to leave the country to seek a living.

If they are so smart they would have found a job. They would have started a job. A man goes to America in his underwear and 15 years later owns a company.
People get what they deserve. Communism destroyed initiative in city dwellers, in so much that they still wait for government to give them jobs.

So, it are the Serbs who are to blame for your political elites pushing the religious agenda? Sure thing, blame everyone else just not yourselves, that is, your own political elite.

My political elite didn't push a religious agenda, they explained the Serb agenda of writing the following:

Ethnicity: Bosniak
Religion: Muslim


Ethnicity: Bosniak
Religion: Islam


Ethnicity: Bosniak
Religion: Islamska

You wanted to write all of that as separate ethnicities. Non Muslim Bosniaks can write any religion they want. And they did.

[Blackfyre]

Saudis did bring weapons, their condition for giving it to us was to let them fight. I see no problem with that. Serbs started with war crimes, and if Saudis exterminated every last one of them I would have no problem with that.

An eye for an eye leaves everyone blind.
They could have said that their crimes are a revenge for Black Legion or SS crimes against Serbs, and that you started it. Everyone here could blame someone from something their ancestor did to theirs, all the way back to the cavemen.

It saved Bosnia. That's all that matters.

Continuing the war for another 3 years, which culminated in war crimes unseen in decades, and losing land, is what saved Bosnia? Do you even hear yourself. The plan would have left far less damage, especially populationwise.

The US involvment in Bosnian war can't be compared to Libya or Syria. Yugoslavia was unimportant the moment the Iron curtain fell. And it remained so ever since. US intervened when it saw that the Serbs are beyond help.

The nation which lead the Unaligned Movement is unimportant? Interesting.
And it is fun to see a nation which has since it's creation focused on imposing their will on others has the right to decide who is beyond help.

Even if federation was 99% of the landmass in that plan, as long as it keeps a provision for Srpska's independence then it should have been refused.

So, the Dayton is bad for you too? You do realise that had you continued beyond Dayton you would no longer be supported by anyone, right?

If they are so smart they would have found a job. They would have started a job. A man goes to America in his underwear and 15 years later owns a company.
People get what they deserve. Communism destroyed initiative in city dwellers, in so much that they still wait for government to give them jobs.

"A man goes to America"
He goes to America, not here. You are speaking as this is America, as if that was so easy. Besides, communism never existed, it was pure socialism. Working actions, an educational system better than the whole west, and so on, did give an initiative to everyone.
You are just going on as if 50% of our youth is not unemployed, you go on as if we don't have one of the biggest braindrains in Europe. Imagine if every single one of them went on the found their own corporation. I mean, you even go on as if they have the money to found them.

Just because your fellow villagers who barely finished elementary school got rich on profiteering during the war, does not mean the system is good. On the contrary.

[RandoBloom]

An eye for an eye leaves everyone blind.
They could have said that their crimes are a revenge for Black Legion or SS crimes against Serbs, and that you started it. Everyone here could blame someone from something their ancestor did to theirs, all the way back to the cavemen.

And then I would say that was in response to Serb crimes post WW1 against us, and crimes during Balkan wars against and on it goes. Strange how eye for an eye should stop with Serbs having a final say. Why can't we kill half a milion Serbs, and expell the rest across the Morava and then ask the Serbs to get over it? ?

Continuing the war for another 3 years, which culminated in war crimes unseen in decades, and losing land, is what saved Bosnia? Do you even hear yourself. The plan would have left far less damage, especially populationwise.

Whose fault is it that those crimes were commited? I am glad that even you accept Serbs as beasts that should never be let in a position of power over civilians. And yes it saved Bosnia, since now acording to Dayton separation is illegal. Population damage was already done, the ethnic cleansing process was completed in early 1992.

The nation which lead the Unaligned Movement is unimportant? Interesting.
And it is fun to see a nation which has since it's creation focused on imposing their will on others has the right to decide who is beyond help.

And what has that movement done? What crisis has it solved? What country did it save? A movement of failures, unimportant of mention. If that nation imposed its will the way Serbs do, there would be no Serbs in existance today. That is the difference between great nations and trash like yours.

So, the Dayton is bad for you too? You do realise that had you continued beyond Dayton you would no longer be supported by anyone, right?

Who said Dayton is bad? I said it is better than the alternatives you support. Dayton is working just fine, Croats and Serbs are trapped with us in the same state, they are hating us, hating the country, and their hate is causing them to leave this place and seek fortune elsewhere. That is more than good.

"A man goes to America"
He goes to America, not here. You are speaking as this is America, as if that was so easy. Besides, communism never existed, it was pure socialism. Working actions, an educational system better than the whole west, and so on, did give an initiative to everyone.
You are just going on as if 50% of our youth is not unemployed, you go on as if we don't have one of the biggest braindrains in Europe. Imagine if every single one of them went on the found their own corporation. I mean, you even go on as if they have the money to found them.

No it didn't. My family never went on worker actions during the entirety of Yugoslavia. My family never had worked in government owned business. They refused to go above elementary school due to Marxism and other idiotic subjects being taught. And the rest of Podvelezhians did the same. Now they are more than succesful, because they preserved their enterprising spirit. They didn't wait for the government to tell them waht to do and what action to organise. They didn't finish a school and then waited for a job by the government. They struggled and in the end it paid off. Nothing puts a smile on my face like hearing Mostarci talk about my people with envy, jealousy and hate.

Just because your fellow villagers who barely finished elementary school got rich on profiteering during the war, does not mean the system is good. On the contrary.

Where could they profiteer? Podvelezje was taken at the start of the war, everyone was forced out, when we came back everything was burned and destroyed, orchards were cut down and forrests burned. We rebuilt all of that and more. And at the same time we were the key in defence of Mostar. While Mostarci talked and cooperated with Serbs we fought. A man who has saved himself from communism during Yugoslavia can achive much.

[Bezprym]

I would not suspect that someone will actually enter the trap and participate in a discussion with Hrulj about his unique background.

[Blackfyre]

No it didn't. My family never went on worker actions during the entirety of Yugoslavia. My family never had worked in government owned business. They refused to go above elementary school due to Marxism and other idiotic subjects being taught. And the rest of Podvelezhians did the same. Now they are more than succesful, because they preserved their enterprising spirit. They didn't wait for the government to tell them waht to do and what action to organise. They didn't finish a school and then waited for a job by the government. They struggled and in the end it paid off. Nothing puts a smile on my face like hearing Mostarci talk about my people with envy, jealousy and hate.

I would not suspect that someone will actually enter the trap and participate in a discussion with Hrulj about his unique background.

Not so unique tho. Villagers are know for not being overly educated. These tho blame the country for their own problems. I don't blame them much, the Podveležje area was utterly impoverished leading to many of them going to work on construction sites in Germany, it is not so easy to realise that they themselves were to blame for their own poverty, and that only the war had helped them.

It is so no surprise he thinks that the war going on for so long was good, they needed time to make use of the situation clearly.