The Norman Conquest in southern Italy

[Osweo]

Sicilian school:

Interesting stuff!

I just wanted to make a brief comment here, though;

While in England the Norman invasion rapresented the return to a dark age, in Italy this led to a reflourish of the literature and art. .

That's not really the case. There was a complete replacement of high culture. The Norman version wasn't overall 'lower' or 'worse' than the native English one it uprooted, it was just starkly different in style, focus and background.

I cannot deny that the Normans were more impressive masons than the English, having spent a few years of my life in the shadow of this;







Of course, the problem is that the Normans destroyed our older cathedrals to build their own. All that we have that survives is from the more rustic parish churches, so it's not easy to imagine what we have lost.

[San Galgano]

The regions of central Italy belonging to the State of the Church were feudal too and faced similar problems.

No, no... Tuscany never been under the state of Church, it passed from the longobard dukedom of Tuscia to commune and then Grandukedom of Tuscany.

[Foxy]

No, no... Tuscany never been under the state of Church, it passed from the longobard dukedom of Tuscia to commune and then Grandukedom of Tuscany.

Indeed I wrote "the regions of central Italy belonging to the State of the Church", not the whole central Italy Tuscany is central Italy but was indipendent. Abruzzo is central too and was under the Normans. The other stayed with the Church. up

[San Galgano]

Indeed I wrote "the regions of central Italy belonging to the State of the Church", not the whole central Italy Tuscany is central Italy but was indipendent. Abruzzo is central too and was under the Normans. The other stayed with the Church. up

I think if Tuscany had been under the papal state we would never have had Renaissance.

[San Galgano]

I would like to add a little thing.
Normans gave a great contribute to free Sicily but Pisa(Tuscany)-who was an important sea republic-crushed the saracen fleet allowing Norman to enter the isle.

Tuscans have always been a pain for everybody.

[Peasant]

I love that Cathedral. And the little Norman Chapel in Durham Castle.

[Aemma]

Leon-Robert Menager in his study "Inventaire des familles normandes et franques emigrees en Italie meridionale et en Sicilie (XIe-XIIe siecles) gives a total figure of 385 immigrant aristocrats in the 11th and 12th centuries into southern Italy and Sicily.

Most were from Normandy (over two-thirds) but men from elsewhere in northern France and Flanders were also represented.

Nice info Libertas! Thank you! Would you happen to have a link for the above-cited work?

[Libertas]

Nice info Libertas! Thank you! Would you happen to have a link for the above-cited work?

I doubt if there is an internet link.
Menager's survey comes from "Roberto il Guiscard e il suo tempo (Fonti e studi del Corpus membranarum italicarum, Centro di studi normanno-suevi, Universita' degli studi di Bari, published in Rome in 1975.

[Libertas]

Aemma, I've found an internet link for you.
For the 275 specifically NORMAN families out of the 385 their origins and a lot of good material (in French) are under this link:
http://sedlouviers.pagesperso-orange...s/normands.htm

[Aemma]

Aemma, I've found an internet link for you.
For the 275 specifically NORMAN families out of the 385 their origins and a lot of good material (in French) are under this link:
http://sedlouviers.pagesperso-orange...s/normands.htm

Actually, what a fantastic find Libertas, I cannot thank you enough!

Briefly for those of you whose French is a tad rusty I'll give the main points as to the reasons why the Normans came to southern Italy, as per this excellent article:

1.1 Pourquoi les Normands sont-ils venus en Italie et d’où venaient-ils ?

Why did the Normans come to Italy and where did they come from?

Reasons given below:

Reason #1: The population's high mobility during the Medieval Period. Apparently people just travelled quite a bit during this time period. (Much like today I suppose!) Princes, bishops, merchants, adventuresome pilgrims, vagabonds, brigands and all manner of men-for-hire travelled freely not only within the Duchy of Normandy but without as well. And not to be forgotten are the numerous monks that lived in the various abbeys who travelled widely. Many abbeys in Calabria were restored by Robert Guiscard.

-La mobilité médiévale : Pierre BOUET dans « les Normands en Méditerranée » nous rappelle que le monde médiéval n’est nullement un monde de sédentaires. Tout le monde, à l’intérieur du duché comme à l’extérieur des frontières n’hésite pas à entreprendre des voyages longs et difficiles. Les princes, les évêques inspectant leur patrimoine et leur diocèse, les marchands, sans oublier les innombrables pèlerins aventuriers, vagabonds, brigands ou loueurs temporaires de bras ou de savoir faire. La conscience du temps (il n’appartient qu’à Dieu) est de toute façon fort éloignée de celle qui prévaut dans notre société industrielle productiviste.

Il faut aussi relever les allées et venues incessantes des moines de l’abbaye de St Evroult, dans l’Orne, dont l’abbé Robert de Grandmesnil confiera la restauration de plusieurs abbayes de Calabre à Robert Guiscard.

Reason #2: Pilgrimages, especially between the spiritual sanctuaries of Mont St Michel and Monte Gargano--both devotional places of the Archangel St. Michael. The grotto at Monte Gargano is an especially important pilgrimage stopping place for those Normans going to the Holy Lands in Jerusalem. Norman knights are regularly solicited to defend Christian lands against the 'infidels'.

-Les pèlerinages : Dès le 9ème siècle, les sanctuaires du MONT SAINT MICHEL et du MONTE GARGANO en APULIE ont été dédiés tous deux à l’ARCHANGE SAINT MICHEL, chef de la brigade céleste et qu’on invoque pour se protéger du brigandage, et se sont trouvés associés dans une relation privilégiée . En l’an 1000, un va et vient de pèlerins unit les deux hauts lieux et dans les deux sens .La grotte du MONT GARGAN constitue l’étape obligée des normands avant ou après la visite des lieux saints de JERUSALEM sur un chemin jalonné par Salerne, Rome et Reims . En outre, depuis que le duché, libéré de ses attaches scandinaves s’est tourné vers l’occident, les chevaliers normands sont régulièrement sollicités pour défendre les terres chrétiennes contre les « infidèles ».

Reason #3: The right to exile. The Duke of Normandy had the right to banish whomever he saw fit if they were a threat to his sovereignty. This was the plight of one Osmond Drangot, his brother Rainolf Drangot (who later became Pirince of Aversa), and their friend Raoul Todinius aka Raoul the First of Tosny.

-Le droit d’exil: Pratique relevant du droit scandinave, le droit d’exil permet au DUC, en cas de crise politique, de complot, de violation de la règle ou d’opposition à son autorité, de condamner à l’exil le « contrevenant » et de confisquer ses biens.
C’est cette mésaventure qui arrive dans les années 1020 à OSMOND DRANGOT, d’assez haut lignage ( les QUADRELLIS d’AVESNES en BRAY), banni par RICHARD II pour s’être fait justice lui-même en assassinant le séducteur de sa fille. RICHARD exile d’ailleurs l’assassin mais aussi son frère (l’inquiétant RAINOLF DRANGOT qui deviendra prince d’AVERSA) et ses amis dont un certain RAOUL TODINIUS ou de TOËNI qui n’est autre que notre turbulent voisin RAOUL 1er de TOSNY .

Reason #4: Mercenaries. There appeared ot be a high demand for such and the Normans skilled in cavalry are readily sought as excellent technicians of this new form of combat. To make oneself for hire could prove very lucrative for some.

-Le « mercenariat »: Au XIe siècle, les armées ne sont ni nationales ni permanentes, l’appel au marché des mercenaires garantit à le fois contre une collusion possible entre mécontents et conscrits et une « volatilité » des armées. En outre, dans l’éventail des spécialités offertes, ces Normands qui maîtrisent l’usage de la cavalerie lourde, sont extrêmement recherchés comme techniciens d’une forme nouvelle du combat . Vendre ses bras dans ces conditions pouvait ainsi se révéler extrêmement lucratif ...

Reason #5: The overpopulation and lack of land in the Duchy of Normandy itself. With the advent of rights of succession going to the first born, numerous younger brothers of the families of Norman nobility found themselves without. Many saw a good opportunity to seek their fortune.

-La surpopulation du duché ou le manque de terre: L’introduction du droit d’aînesse dans la transmission des terres a privé de fiefs de nombreux cadets de la petite noblesse normande. Néanmoins, des terres inexploitées sont encore disponibles dans le sud du bocage et en Basse Normandie. En vérité, la situation de l’Italie méridionale apporte la possibilité d’une fortune autrement rapide et c’est l’attrait de ce nouvel eldorado qui semble le plus déterminant.

Comme l’écrit Lucien MUSSET « le facteur décisif du flux d’émigration normande est la découverte sur place que l’Italie du sud était une terre riche et mal défendue où des fortunes rapides étaient à portée de main.. » pour qui saurait saisir l’occasion et où la possibilité était offerte à de simples chevaliers d’accéder au faite des honneurs.

Again, great find Libertas. And thank you.