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Thread: The Hellenes and the Greeks

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    Default The Hellenes and the Greeks

    Herodotus: 56. Of all the answers that had reached him, this pleased him far the best, for it seemed incredible that a mule should ever come to be king of the Medes, and so he concluded that the sovereignty would never depart from himself or his seed after him. Afterwards he turned his thoughts to the alliance which he had been recommended to contract, and sought to ascertain by inquiry which was the most powerful of the Grecian states. His inquiries pointed out to him two states as pre-eminent above the rest. These were the Lacedaemonians and the Athenians, the former of Doric the latter of Ionic blood. And indeed these two nations had held from very early times the most distinguished place in Greece, the one being a Pelasgic the other a Hellenic people, and the one having never quitted its original seats, while the other had been excessively migratory; for during the reign of Deucalion, Phthiotis was the country in which the Hellenes dwelt, but under Dorus, the son of Hellen, they moved to the tract at the base of Ossa and Olympus, which is called Histiaeotis; forced to retire from that region by the Cadmeians,[1] they settled, under the name of Macedni, in the chain of Pindus. Hence they once more removed and came to Dryopis; and from Dryopis having entered the Peloponnese in this way, they became known as Dorians.

    57. What the language of the Pelasgi was I cannot say with any certainty. If, however, we may form a conjecture from the tongue spoken by the Pelasgi of the present day, - those, for instance, who live at Creston above the Tyrrhenians, who formerly dwelt in the district named Thessaliotis, and were neighbours of the people now called the Dorians, - or those again who founded Placia and Scylace upon the Hellespont, who had previously dwelt for some timewith the Athenians, - or those, in short, of any other of the cities which have dropped the name but are in fact Pelasgian; if, I say, we are to form a conjecture from any of these, we must pronounce that the Pelasgi spoke a barbarous language. If this were really so, and the entire Pelasgic race spoke the same tongue, the Athenians, who were certainly Pelasgi, must have changed their language at the same time that they passed into the Hellenic body; for it is a certain fact that the people of Creston speak a language unlike any of their neighbours, and the same is true of the Placianians, while the language spoken by these two people is the same; which shows that they both retain the idiom which they brought with them into the countries where they are now settled.

    58. The Hellenic race has never, since its first origin, changed its speech. This at least seems evident to me. It was a branch of the Pelasgic, which separated from the main body, and at first was scanty in numbers and of little power; but it gradually spread and increased to a multitude of nations, chiefly by the voluntary entrance into its ranks of numerous tribes of barbarians. The Pelasgi, on the other hand, were, as I think, a barbarian race which never greatly multiplied.

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    As Herodotus tell us the Hellenes and the Greeks were the most prominent Greek-speaking tribes.

    Hellenes were the decedents of Hellen the son of Deukalion and was applied by the Greeks to refer to the Dorians, Aeolians, Ionians and Achaeans collectively. The Hellenes spoke the Doric, Aeolic and Attic-Ionic dialects.

    The Greeks were the descendants of Graecus, the son of Pelasgus. The Pelasgians spoke the Arcado-Cypriot-Mycenean dialect of Greek.

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    The Greeks were called Greeks after Graecus the son of Thessalus the son of Haemon the son of Pelasgus, and Pandora the daughter of Deukalion, who Hellene and his sons displaced in the region of Phthia. The Greeks were therefore Pelasgians and the Hellenes were the part of these Greeks (Pelasgians) who were ruled by Dorus around Parnassus, Aeolus around Thessaly and Xuthus in the Peloponnesus. Only when they came under the rulle of kings descended from Hellen did the Greeks, such as the Athenians, enter the Hellenic body.
    Last edited by wvwvw; 09-17-2016 at 04:51 AM.

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    The Greeks were Pelasgians and there are plenty of references by historians to Pelasgic script being in use before Cadmian script. Secondly Hellene lived at the same time as Cadmus so any reference to Hellenes can't possibly predate Cadmus and the Hellenes can't have had writing before they even existed.

    Only the Greeks descended from Dorus, Aeolus and Xuthus or who had kings descended from them were called Hellenes. Their kings were all descended from Hellen. The people and the language was a branch of the Pelasgians as is stated by Herodotus.


    Herodotus 1.58.1] "The Hellenic race has never, since its first origin, changed its speech. This at least seems evident to me. It was a branch of the Pelasgic, which separated from the main body, and at first was scanty in numbers and of little power; but it gradually spread and increased to a multitude of nations, chiefly by the voluntary entrance into its ranks of numerous tribes of barbarians. The Pelasgi, on the other hand, were, as I think, a barbarian race which never greatly multiplied."

    The term barbarian was used by Herodotus to refer to people who did not speak the Hellenic dialect of Greek. It was also used by the Athenians to refer to those who did not speak the Attic dialect of Greek including the Spartans and Macedonians who as we know were both Greek tribes who spoke the Doric dialect.

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    Says Herodotus:

    "57. What the language of the Pelasgi was I cannot say with any certainty. If, however, we may form a conjecture from the tongue spoken by the Pelasgi of the present day, - those, for instance, who live at Creston above the Tyrrhenians, who formerly dwelt in the district named Thessaliotis, and were neighbours of the people now called the Dorians, - or those again who founded Placia and Scylace upon the Hellespont, who had previously dwelt for some timewith the Athenians, - or those, in short, of any other of the cities which have dropped the name but are in fact Pelasgian; if, I say, we are to form a conjecture from any of these, we must pronounce that the Pelasgi spoke a barbarous language. If this were really so, and the entire Pelasgic race spoke the same tongue, the Athenians, who were certainly Pelasgi, must have changed their language at the same time that they passed into the Hellenic body; for it is a certain fact that the people of Creston speak a language unlike any of their neighbours, and the same is true of the Placianians, while the language spoken by these two people is the same; which shows that they both retain the idiom which they brought with them into the countries where they are now settled."


    In Herodotus time Pelasgians was still spoken by the Pelasgians beside Thrace and in Creston (Italy) above the Tyrrhenians and everywhere else Pelasgians lived. Herodotus heard the language because he visited these places and know that it was common to all Pelasgians and that Greek was descended from it, whereas it bore no relation to any other languages.

    Pelasgian was a dialect of Ionic-Arcadian-Cyprian-Mycenaean since the Pelasgians came from Arcadia, and also since Herodotus could recognise it since he spoke the Ionic dialect.

    Herodotus had heard Pelsagian and he knew that Greek was directly descended from it but not any of the languages of the people who lived next to the Pelasgians. The only thing he did not know was where Pelasgian came from because there was no one else apart from the Hellenes who spoke anything similar to it, not even the Italians and Tyrrhenians or Carians.

    Herodotus was discussion the origin of the Hellenic race and that race he considered to be a branch of the Pelasgic race. The term Greeks applies to both Hellenes and Palasgains since it was coined by the Romans because the Pelasgians were the first people from Greece that they met. The term barbarian was used by Herodotus to refer to anybody who did not speak the Hellenic dialect of Greek. There were other dialects of Greek and those included Pelasgian. Eteocretan for example.

    Herodotus says the Pelasgians "... a barbarian race which never greatly multiplied".

    A non-Hellenic race that is, not a non-Greek race. The Pelasgians are Greeks by definition since the Greeks were named after Graecus the son of Thessalus the son of Haemon the son of Pelasgus.
    Last edited by wvwvw; 09-17-2016 at 05:25 AM.

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    The Eteocretans were a Greek tribe and spoke Greek. What Greek historians actually say is that the all spoke Greek but Hellenic. Homer lists them with the other Greek tribes.

    Homer, The Odyssey "There is a fair and fruitful island in mid-ocean called Crete; it is thickly peopled and there are nine cities in it: the people speak many different languages which overlap one another, for there are Acheans, brave Eteocretans, Dorians of three-fold race, and noble Pelasgi."

    All are listed together as Greek tribes with overlapping dialects therefore all spoke Greek using the standard definition of Greek which includes Pelasgians.

    The Romans called all the Greek speaking inhabitants of Greece, Greeks and the Greeks were a subset of the Pelasgians. The Hellenes were regarded as a subset of the Greeks which became greater in numbers than any other Greeks and therefore became dominant.

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    Says Herodotus: "...the Athenians, who were certainly Pelasgi, must have changed their language at the same time that they passed into the Hellenic body; "

    The Athenians were Pelasgians who changed their language, whereas the Dorian's did not.

    "...the entire Pelasgic race spoke the same tongue"

    ONE race, ONE language. Those who differed like the Athenians stopped being called Pelasgians.

    The Dorian-Pelasgi came to Greece in 2200 BC and later in 1900 BC the Ionians came along and put a wedge between those in the north and those in the Peloponnese. The Dorian-Pelasgi in North-Western Greece became Dorians. Those in the Peloponnese and Thessaly became Pelasgi. The Dorian's were nomadic whereas the Pelasgi were City Dwellers hence their name Polis-gi.

    Herodotus says that both the Dorians and Ionians were originally Pelasgians. Herodotus and other Greek writers such as Stabo only concentred on the similarity between various Greek dialects that derived from Hellenic. Modern linguists that adhere to the Risch-Chadwick theory ignore these similarities and instead concentrate on the differences so that they go further back to the time when Greek split into two groups, North-western and Eastern Greek.

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    Herodotus say that all the Pelasgi he know spoke the same dialect
 irrespectively of where they lived. Hellenic was a specific set of Greek dialects and Pelasgic was another set of Greek dialects. All the Hellenic dialects, Doric, Aeolic, Achaean and Attic-Ionic were descended from Pelasgian.

    Modern archaeology has confirmed what Herodotus said. The Lemnos inscription is written in Pelasgian Greek and is not Ionic or anything like it. It is written in Pelasgian Greek before a commonly accepted spelling convention was adopted. It was dictated orally to a hired scribe who was probably Phoenician.

    Herodotus introduces the passage by saying that the Athenians were NOT originally of Hellenic but Pelasgian and then became Hellenes. (After they were joined by the Ionians).

    The Ionians tribe that joined them came from Phthiotis and was named after Ion the son of Xuthus. There were no people in Greece called Ionians before Ion who dates to 1300 BC. According to Pausanius the old name for the land where Ion came from was called Hellas. The old name for Ionia itself was Aigialea and dated back to 1660 BC.

    Aeolic is the language of Hesiod, i.e. Boeotian-Thessalian Greek, and akin to Doric and Achaean and the least related dialect to Ionic according to Strabo.

    The Pelasgains form Lemnos knew where they came from as did Herodotus as did the earlier historians he quotes. All Greek and Roman Historiens said the Pelasgians from Lemnos came form Athens and before that fled form Thebes and before that came from Thessaly. Thucydides makes it clear that the Pelasgains from Lemnos also colonised Thyrrenia in Italy and named their city Athens.

    There is NO historical
record of Etruscans on Lemnos. The people that some people have falseLy identified as
 in Lemnos as Etruscans are Pelasgians. Even when the longest inscription in the script is found in Egypt a place where the Etruscans never set foot but were there were colonies of Pelasgians.

    Herodotus makes it perfectly clear that the people who lived in Tyrhennia were Lydian's who migrated there in 1600 BC and Pelasgians who migrated there 500 years later. Both peoples were easily differentiated even in Herodotus time 600 years later still. If the inscriptions found in Etruria are in the same script as from Lemnos then they are not Etruscan but Pelasgian Greek.

    Also there were no such thing as Etruscans. Livy makes it perfecetly clear that the people who colonised Etruria
 were from various colonies of Lydians, Pelasgains, Trojans and Cochians. The existence of Colchian colonies has been proven by the presence of the G DNA linage which exists nowhere else except in Caucasian populations. There were also
 native Italian tribes in Etruria like the Tuscans, but no Etruscans. Those who say Etruscans were a single people, should prove
 that these tribes were united under one language and one rule. I want primary sources and complete quotes, not the options of some 19th
century bigot who made them up. Several dozen unrelated tribes lived in Etruria and their was NO political union between any of them.

    The Tyrrhenians (Lydians) already spoke an indo-European language when the sent colonists to Italy in 1600 BC, after the Thera erruption caused a 18 year famine. The Pelasgians from Lemnos colonised Thyrennia and founded Thrrhenian Athens.

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    The name Greeks was coined by the Romans from Graecus the son the Thessalus king of Thessaly the son of Haemon the son of Pelasgus king of Arcadia since the Pelasgians were the first people from Greece that the Romans encounterd since the Pelasgians colonised Italy in Mycenean times (1500-1200 BC). The language of Graecus was the same language as Pelasgus and was Arcado-Cypriot otherwise known as Mycenaean Greek. Palesgians also colonized Palestine and Philistine (Pelast ie. Pelasgians) inscriptions from Palestine also show they used Greek names.

    When the Romans later encountered the Hellenes who were the descendants of Hellene king of Hellas the son of Deucalion king of Pthiotis when they colonised Italy from about the time of the first Olympiad (776 BC) and the foundation of Rome by Romulus i(753 BC) they were also called Greeks since they spoke the same language as the Pelasgian tribes that still lived in Italy at the time some of whom who came with Evander in 1250 BC had become Roman citizens.

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    Confirmation the Philistines were Pelasgian Greeks

    Archaeologists find first-ever Philistine cemetery in Israel

    Cemetery in ancient Ashkelon, dating back 2700-3000 years, proves the
    Philistines came from the Aegean, and that in contrast to the
    conventional wisdom, they were a peaceful folk.

    A huge Philistine cemetery some 3000-years-old has been found in the
    Mediterranean seaport of Ashkelon. The manner of the burials proves, for
    the first time, that the Philistines had to have come from the Aegean
    Sea region, and that they had very close ties with the Phoenician world.

    “Ninety-nine percent of the chapters and articles written about
    Philistine burial customs should be revised or ignored now that we have
    the first and only Philistine cemetery,” says Lawrence E. Stager, Dorot
    Professor of the Archaeology of Israel, Emeritus, at Harvard University.

    The cemetery was found just outside the city walls of Tel Ashkelon, one
    of the Philistines' five primary cities in ancient Israel.

    The cemetery was found to have more then 150 individual burials dating
    from the 11th to 8th century BCE. The undisturbed graves have shed fresh
    light on a mystery bedeviling archaeologists for decades: the
    Philistines' real origins.
    US anthropologist and pathologist, Sherry Fox shows a skull discovered
    at the excavation site of the first Philistine cemetery ever found in
    Ashkelon, on June 28, 2016. Menahem Kahana, AFP

    “The basic question we want to know is where this people are from," said
    Dr. Sherry Fox, a physical anthropologist who is sampling the bones for
    analysis, including for DNA studies, and radiocarbon and biological
    distance studies.

    How the Philistines lived: Not like Canaanites

    The unprecedented discovery of the Philistine cemetery allows the
    archaeologists not only to study Philistine burial practices for the
    first time, but also to gain insights on Philistine characteristics and
    lifestyle. With this discovery, the archaeologists finally have a data
    set not on one or two individuals but a whole population, explains
    Daniel M. Master, professor of Wheaton College and co-director of the
    Leon Levy Expedition. That in turn will enable them to talk about what’s
    typical and what’s not typical, he explains.

    “This forms a baseline for what 'Philistine' is. We can already say that
    the cultural practices we see here are substantially different from the
    Canaanites and the highlanders in the east," Master says.
    Archaeologists investigating the first unmistakably Philistine burial
    ground found in Israel, in Ashkelon. Philippe Bohstrom

    The bodies can also provide information about Philistine dietary habits,
    lifestyle and morbidity.

    One conclusion the archaeologists have already reached is that these
    particular individuals seemed to have been spared from strife.

    “There is no evidence of any kind of trauma on the bones, from war on
    inter-personal violence,” Fox told Haaretz.

    Unlike the typical burial practice in the region - family burials or
    multiple burials, where the deceased were laid on raised platforms or
    benches - the practice in Ashkelon was markedly different.

    The deceased were, for the most part, buried in oval pits. Four out of
    the 150 were cremated and some other bodies were deposited in ashlar
    burial chamber tombs. These are burial practices well known from the
    Aegean cultural sphere - but certainly not from the Canaanite one.
    Artifacts found with the skeletons in the Philistine graveyard in
    Ashkelon are indicative of Philistine culture, not Canaanite. Philippe
    Bohstrom

    A peaceful lot

    Other finds that accompanied the deceased typically included storage
    jars, bowls and juglets, and in some rare cases fine jewelry - as well
    as arrowheads and spear points.

    A hoard of iron arrowheads was discovered by the pelvis of one man, the
    amount one would expect to find in a quiver.

    “The same arrow was not repeated, but a variety of forms and sizes,
    which is interesting," Dr. Adam Aja, assistant director of the
    excavation, told Haaretz, and added, “Perhaps the archer could choose
    the arrows he needed to penetrate flesh, armor or wood.”

    Spear-points and some jewelry were also found next to the Philistine bowman.
    Pottery artifacts found in the Philistine graveyard in Ashkelon, dating
    back c. 3000 years. Philippe Bohstrom

    In other instances, small vials that had contained perfume were found
    next to the deceased (probably an olive oil based with different
    fragrances) . In two cases the bottle was found at the nostril, pointing
    to the nose, presumably so that the deceased could smell perfume
    throughout eternity.

    In addition to the 150 individual pit graves found at the cemetery, six
    burial chambers with multiple bodies were found (when the bodies were
    found at all). A magnificent rectangular burial chamber was discovered
    inside the cemetery, built with perfectly hewn sandstones. But the
    large stone door that once stood at its entrance evidently could not
    hinder grave robbers from looting the tomb of its treasure and its
    occupants' skeletal remains.

    When the chamber was built and used is anybody’s guess. “The latest
    pottery is trash from the 7th century BCE, but the chamber might have
    been built and used somewhat earlier,” Master told Haaretz.
    The roughly 3000-year old skeletons found in the Philistine graveyard in
    Ashkelon have clear hallmarks of Aegean customs, not Canaanite. Philippe
    Bohstrom

    Linen, papyrus and slaves

    Ashkelon became a flourishing trading hub during the Bronze Age because
    of its location on the Mediterranean Sea and its proximity to Egypt. It
    was through Ashkelon, which was situated just north of Gaza, that Egypt
    sold linen and papyrus – and also slaves – to the rest of the ancient world.

    Other goods distributed through Ashkelon during the Iron Age (ca.
    1185-604 BCE) included wine and textile. There is also evidence of grain
    imports from Judah, again attesting to the Philistine city as an
    important gateway between the East and the West.

    Ashkelon would remain a key trading center up to Crusader times. But it
    was destroyed by the Mamluk sultan Baibars in 1270 CE, a blow from which
    it never recovered.

    The Philistines execute a pincer maneuver

    According to the Bible, the island of Crete (usually held to be
    identical with Caphtor Jeremiah 47:4; Amos 9:7), though not necessarily
    the original home of the Philistines, was the place from which they
    migrated to the Canaan coast.

    That the Philistines were not indigenous to Canaan is indicated by
    ceramics, architecture, burial customs, and pottery remains with writing
    – in non-Semitic languages (several inscribed stamp handles, as well as
    a pottery sherd with a Cypro-Minoan script, all dating to around
    1150-1000 BCE).
    Pottery sherd with Cypro-Minoan writing, found on the floor of a house
    in Philistine Ashkelon, dated to the 11th century BCE. Zev Radovan,
    courtesy of the Leon Levy Expedition to Ashkelon

    The ancient DNA-analysis may be the final nail in the coffin that
    settles the debate of the Philistines origins.

    Meanwhile, Lawrence E. Stager of Harvard has long been convinced that
    the Philistines came by ship, sailing from the Aegean area, perhaps
    Cyprus, to the South Canaan coast, and established themselves there
    before their great assault on Egypt.

    One of the earliest references to the Philistines is Ramesses III´s
    mortuary relief at Medinet Habu. The relief portrays the Battle of the
    Delta, the grand struggle between the Egyptians and the Sea Peoples that
    took place at the mouth of the Nile during the early 12th century BCE
    (1176-75 BCE).

    Since the relief depicts oxcarts, chariots and ships, some scholars
    assume the Philistines came overland from Anatolia to Egypt. Stager is
    skeptical. “There is no way you can come with oxcarts from Anatolia,
    down through all the hills," he explains. "It makes much more sense if
    they came with ships, loading and offloading these vehicles."

    He also points out that the Battle of the Delta was the one known epic
    battle between the Egyptians and Philistines or Sea Peoples. There
    weren't two. If the Philistines attacked the Egyptians, they would
    likely have sent a navy down the Mediterranean - and an army of land
    troops, effectively creating a pincer maneuver against Ramesses III,
    Stager speculates.

    Stager suspects the Philistines had to have been well entrenched in
    south Canaan before the Battle of the Delta. Ashkelon would have been
    one of the first strategic points the Philistines would have settled,
    securing as sort of “bridgehead”, before they launched their armada and
    infantry against the Egyptians in the Nile Delta.

    “Ramesses III tried to contain them in their five Philistine cities, but
    obviously he could not control them or drive them out," says Stager.

    Daniel Master differs: “I think Egypt was still in control of the
    region, even Philistia, and that the Philistines settled with Egyptian
    acquiescence. This is become a broader consensus over the last few
    years due to work at Megiddo, Jaffa, and Ashkelon itself, where we find
    many Egyptian objects from this period,” he told Haaretz.

    At this point, we do not know if the Egyptians managed to subdue the
    Philistines. But we do know that the Philistines did eventually have
    their comeuppance.

    In early December 604 BCE, the Babylonians swept through Philistia,
    destroying the cities and exiling its inhabitants. The Babylonian ruler
    Nebuchadnezzar torched Philistia in early December 604 BCE, yet within
    the massive destruction, architecture, ceramics and even foods remained,
    providing the archaeologists with a snapshot of life in a Philistine
    city during the 7th century BCE.

    2016 marks the final season of the Leon Levy Expedition to Ashkelon,
    where they have been excavating since 1985.
    read more: http://www.haaretz.com/jewish/archaeology/1.729879
    That was 3000 ago, not 3000 BC. That places it at the time of the Trojan War when the Greeks including Pelasgia from Arcadia invaded Egypt and Syria and colonised Cyprus under the leadership of Menelaus, Teucer and Agapanor according to their own accounts and corroborated by the inscription and mural of Ramses III. The burial ground shows no signs on Phoenician habitation or burial practices whereas what it does show is that the burials and pottery and even writing styles were all from the Greece and Cyprus.

    The inscription of Ramses III refers to Sea Peoples and gives them the names of Greek tribes attacking Egypt from a base in Cyprus, including Achaeans (Akhiyawah), Pelasgians (Pelaset/Philistines) and Cypriot Teukrians (Djeker), therefore corroborating Teucer, Agapanor, Menelaus and the aftermath of the Trojan War, and is one of the obvious sources used by Herodotus in book 2 of his Histories which describes the same events and by Euripides in his play Helen which recalls the Greek defeat by the Egyptians.

    The archaeology now firmly proves the Philistines came from Greece, observed Greek burial customs, used Cypro-Minoan script, traded in Greek pottery, and clearly distinguishes their customs, diet and material culture from that of the Phoenicians. The DNA analysis is also tending in the same direction. The were not Phoenicians but Greeks, nor Phoenician remains at the site. The material culture was Greek. Their burial customs, their material culture, their diet, the style of their
    buildings and pottery is all from the Aegean. They even used Greek script for writing.The burials were carried out in the same way as they were in Greece and Crete and like no where else in Palestine, Phoenicia or Egypt.

    According to the history books Greeks colonised Syria, Lybia and Egypt since the time of Io the daughter of Inarchus dating to 1650 BC (Jerome/Syncellus). What the history states and what the evidence now shows is that Greeks came to Egypt at the time of the Hyksos, ruled over the Sinai and then they conquered Cannan and named it Phoenicia after Phoenix. Then they travelled to Greece with Cadmus taking the Proto-Sinaitc Egyptian script with them which became Greek script in Greece and Phoenician script in Canaan.

    In the Bible it states that the Philistines came out of Caftorim which came out of Mizraim, thus indicating the Sinai. Phoenicia was therefore conquered by the Philistines.

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