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Thread: The Hellenes and the Greeks

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aemilius View Post
    Why the constant references to the gods when talking about lineages?
    Don't know man. It looks like some sort of Ancient Greek version of creationnism.


  2. #22
    Veteran Member wvwvw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aemilius View Post
    The claim of descent from Zeus, Herakles, etc.
    Because they were descended from them. All of the gods and heroes originated as real persons. Their descendents were still living and ruling places such as Sparta, Athens, Corinth and Macedonia in classical and Hellenistic times and their royal histories and geneologies and burials grounds proved it. Noone doubted their existance. It'd be as if you doubted the existance of Samuel or as if the Brits doubted the entire genealogy linking the British royal family to William the Conqueror and the existence of Julius Caesar and Augustus who were both named Gods by the Romans as well as Alexander the Great. All ancient writers explicitly state that all of the Gods were originally mortal kings who were defied by their own people, either during their lifetimes or later. The Greek gods and heros have living descendents just like the kings and queens of the British Isles and France and Spain and Italy and Scandinavia.

    The temples were set up by the gods and heroes themselves to house their own or their ancestors remains and they made their own relatives, offspring and descendants priests over them since Minoan and Mycenaean times and had complete written genealogies of priests and kings as well volumes of scrolls and other records containing their acts and legislation.

    The facts clearly show that even from Mycenaean times that the civic records of the ancient Greeks were as sophisticated as those of the Romans, Egyptians, Assyrians, Babylonians and even those of the middle ages and those we have today.

    There were records of births, marriages and deaths, there were records of tax receipts, there were records of military deployments, records of trade, records of everything and the the kings of each Greek city state know who they were descended from and who their predecessors and when they ruled, just like modern Brits know today the ancestry of the British royal family from William the Conqueror and the lines of decent of the kings of Italy and Spain.
    Last edited by wvwvw; 10-09-2016 at 04:59 PM.

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    Over 200 Greeks city states had rulers and citizens who claimed descent from the gods and heroes and could prove it along with historical records, burial sites and religious rites which all agreed with those of every other city state as to who lived at which time, who was descended from whom and their common deeds including battles which each city state took part in with other city states some of which where on opposites sides of the Aegean. I am not talking about a set of texts that consist of just Homer and Hesiod but over 100,000 separate historical texts less than 5% of which survive today, and this is just for Greece. If we include Rome and Europe then multiply that by 10, and there is not one single contradiction among and of them and we know that since the 5% of texts that survive today contain their epitomies and all show a single common source, the actual historical events themselves.

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    The facts that stand that no one ever disputed the ancestry of the kings of any of the Greek city states because there was an entire body of public records available which proved their ancestry to the same degree as that of the British royal family today.

    Herodotus wrote roughly 1000 years after Dionysus lived, the same time between the present and William the Conqueror. The Theban royal family from which Dionysus was descended from survived to the time that Herodotus was writing and beyond and Herodotus was able to verify their claims when he refers to the killers of Hippias. Dionysus' skeleton existed and was buried at Delphi just like the skeleton of William the Conqueror survives today and its burial site is known. Dispute one fact on the basis that Herodotus was writing 1000 years after the fact despite the historical records and physicals artefacts that were available to him is like you dispute every historian who has written on the same basis including those claming the existence of William the Conqueror and the kings of Italy, France and Spain.

    The same degree of proof as that pertaining to the ancestry of the British royals also applied to the Macedonian royal family who had to prove their line of decent from Herakles to the satisfaction of the judges at the Olympic Games in order from Alexander I to be allowed to take part.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aemilius View Post
    It's common knowledge that Greek is the English name for Hellenic or Ellinas in the Greek langauge. It derives from the Latin spelling of the original spelling.
    NO. Greek derives from Graecus and Romans called them Greeks because they were descended from Graicus. The first Greeks to colonise Italy were descended from Graecus and spoke the Arcado-Cypriot dialect which is also what Myceaneans spoke so the Romans named Greeks even those descended from Hellene, because they spoke the same language.

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    It is possible that, in spite of Aristotle's testimony of their Thessalian origin,[clarification needed] their name is derived from the toponym of Graia (Γραία), a city in Boeotia, according to Pausanias identical with Tanagra. According to Aristotle and to the Parian Chronicle the city was called Graia (Γραία, meaning "old", from the adjective γραῖα "old (feminine)"[1] ) simply because it was standing there before the Deluge and was considered as the oldest city in Greece.
    Eponymous ancestor

    The eponymous ancestor of the Graecians in Hesiod is called Graecus (Γραικός). According to Hesiod, he was the son of Pandora and brother of Latinus. Their mother Pandora (named after her grandmother Pandora), was the daughter of Deucalion and Pyrrha and sister of Hellen. Other sources have Graecus as the son of Thessalus.

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    The Greeks worshipped their own ancestors. The Greek religion was based in the Polis or City and acknowledged City Gods.

    The Greek Gods were former Greek kings who date to between 1800 and 1600 BC with the exception of Dionysus who dates to 1400 BC.

    Most of the traditions of the Greek Gods were established when the Greekmystery cults were created with the borrowing of Egyptian ritual during the period between 1500 and 1400 BC when Danaus and the sons of Aegyptus (Tutmeses III) came to Greece.

    Each Greek city state had its own kings and queens who were identified with the new Pantheon but the contemporary poets so over time and long before the Trojan War occured these kings and queens were merged with the original Gods. By the time of Herakles birth on November 4 1286 BC Perseus was already being regarded as a son of Zeus and Herakels himself became a God in his own right somewhere between 1226 and 1150 BC in a manner much like the way Julius Caesar and Augustus were made into Gods.

    Also, ALL the people in Greek mythology lived in their own time. There was no importing people who were dead into other peoples stories unless they were Gods who have been defied or it is made clear that they were dead. Not were people imported from the future.
    Last edited by wvwvw; 10-09-2016 at 05:15 PM.

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    The Linear B inscriptions name the Gods and spell the names as they are pronounced in modern Greek today. Dionysus is written Di-Wo-Ni-So-Jo and Poseidon is written Po-Se-Do-O. All are found in religions contexts so there is no question of someone finding the inscriptions and making the Gods up at later date. The Gods were already being worshiped in 1250 BC

    http://www.csun.edu/~hcfll004/mycen.html

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