David Reich's summary of the population history of Europe

[Petalpusher]

Ok 40%, but if they are the originals as claimed how do you go from 40% to 20% while increasing your HG %? And where did they get all the light eye and skin genes which everyone has today?

It is not something possible from simple mixing. Anyone supposed to be the origin of modern whites that short of a time back must be more pure not less. And those genes are not selected on, we can detect that. Even if they were it's too short a time. There has to be some other group.

In spain there's also r1b samples with basically zero ANE and it declines steadily going west.

Yamnaya were EHG (WHG+ANE) + CHG like. You simply mix late neo cultures + Yamnaya to various degrees. Late neo were more WHG than pretty much anyone today. Bronze age seen from an admixture point of view is really a simple cline traversing Europe.


On pigmentation:

[Peterski]

how do you go from 40% to 20% while increasing your HG %?

As Yamnaya expanded into Europe, they mixed with WHG-rich and ENF-rich populations.

This is why ANE dropped from 40% to 20%, while ENF increased and WHG stayed similar.

[Poise n Pen]

As Yamnaya expanded into Europe, they mixed with WHG-rich and ENF-rich populations.

This is why ANE dropped from 40% to 20%, while ENF increased and WHG stayed similar.

Ok, so say that these yamnaya are 100% r1b and 100% brown eyed and darker skinned than any pure white and move to ireland.

So how do you become 90% light eyed from that? The best you can hope for is to kill off the whole population of local males and take all the females, while bring none of your own. At best that could make you 25% light eyed since brown is dominant. And it could never make you 100% light skinned.

Basically there are two big light skin genes almost everyone in europe has and definitely 100% of north europeans have. These guys have one of them at 100% levels and the other at 0% levels. They also have 100% 'wrong' mtdna. The same kind of mtdna the udmurts have btw.

It's completely impossible to go from yamnaya to modern white populations and preserve that huge level of r1b in places like ireland and basque territory with simple mixing. It would have to be selective. But we know it's not selective because we can test that and the time is way too short.

But at the same time corded ware is around and they are much whiter. It is also twice as big of an area.

Archaeologically speaking yamnaya and corded ware are at the exact same time. You could easily find that corded ware came first, they are so close. So it's not unreasonable to think that a similar find to the one for yamnaya could be found to the west if they actually ever dug there (and tore up a shitload of cities lol) and that this similar group more to the west would actually turn out to be fully white already. Which completely blows yamnaya idea out of the water.

And that makes more sense anyway because why would r1b leapfrog over r1a like that? Just to confuse us? And how would they do it and then get so much larger numbers than r1a in a short time? It doesn't even make any sense. And even if they can do all that how did they avoid taking any r1a with them on the way?

So anyway, this theory can be true, but the timing is off by 10k years if it is.

[Peterski]

These guys have one of them at 100% levels and the other at 0% levels.

No, they had both - 100% of one gene and 50% of the other one.

================================

The best you can hope for is to kill off the whole population of local males and take all the females

And this is exactly what happened:

http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2016/09/30/078360

http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/e...78360.full.pdf

(...) For later migrations from the Pontic steppe during the LNBA, however, we estimate a dramatic male bias, with ~5-14 migrating males for every migrating female. We find evidence of ongoing, primarily male, migration from the steppe to central Europe over a period of multiple generations, with a level of sex bias that excludes a pulse migration during a single generation. The contrasting patterns of sex-specific migration during these two migrations suggest a view of differing cultural histories in which the Neolithic transition was driven by mass migration of both males and females in roughly equal numbers, perhaps whole families, whereas the later Bronze Age migration and cultural shift were instead driven by male migration, potentially connected to new technology and conquest.

[Rethel]

yamnayans niggas.png

[Poise n Pen]

No, they had both - 100% of one gene and 50% of the other one.

================================



And this is exactly what happened:

http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2016/09/30/078360

http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/e...78360.full.pdf

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/sho...eppe-migration

Well here is my writeup of that paper. Long story short even if it's correct adding those populations together don't add up to the modern populations, and using the X chromosome like that for anything but extremely recent mixing is probably a wholly invalid procedure. It's basically more backsolving crap...here is what we say happened and here's the (extremely unlikely) math it would take to make it happen. Please don't notices that even if this is true it still completely fails to produce a modern population.

It's the neolithics that only have one gene and lack the other completely, I said it wrong though. But having the yamnaya people having 50% just proves the obvious that they are the mixed population who came from the west and conquered some other exotic population.

Also it's hilarious that it's yet another paper on European ethnogenesis with the authors' list entirely filled by swedish jews from an extreme leftist university.

[Poise n Pen]

Let's put it like this. Bell Beaker is the modern Central European, they are genetically basically exactly the same as basically all NW europe today. But BB is completely impossible to explain in this context. You don't have the right (far western) mtdna and you don't have the hair, eye and skin color. Even if the paper is all true, how did all the r1a get pushed eastwards by yamnaya which themselves were eastwards. We know when BB shows up. So in a very short time Yamanaya keapfrogs to the west of corded ware, whitens up, then grows to vastly outnumber corded ware and drives them a huge distance eastwards.

Archaeology also seems to show BB comes from the extreme west, and BB NEVER makes it to the steppe, not even close. BB also overlaps Yamnaya culture in time for God's sake. So even if all the unlikely stuff above were plausible these facts seem very hard to reconcile. And there's no explanation at all for when whitening up occurred. There's no white population with light eyes in all this! Or for how BB is 100% lactose tolerant. And there's no V mtdna found at yamnaya which is found in every other r1b location, even in africa. So if this is the original r1b population how is this massive coincidence possible?

So like usually there are just some vague dots connected together but the real important link is completely missing.

[johen]

Yamnaya-Afanasievo-Catacomb-Poltavka vs. Andronovo-Sintashta-Srubnaya in Gedrosia K12 calculator:

https://s15.postimg.org/jpm9wignv/Gedrozja_K12.png

There is no offence. Honestly, I want to ask a question: Is it ok to identify the ancient nomad people by genetics? Indo-european, indo-Aryan, scythian were all nomad people.
There was no concept to be homogeneous in nomad, which means they did not care about genetics.
As far as we know, the nomad had characteristics to wipe out sedentary male and take women.

David anthony put it this way:

When it comes to understanding the origin of European culture, there’s another reason for looking at the Yamnaya. The very foundation of Rome may be steeped in their traditions. According to studies of IndoEuropean mythology, young Yamnaya men would go off in warlike groups, raping and pillaging for a few years, then return to their village and settle down into respectability as adults. Those cults were mythologically associated with wolves and dogs, like youths forming wild hunting packs, and the youths are said to have worn dog or wolf skins during their initiation. Anthony has found a site in Russia where the Yamnaya killed wolves and dogs in midwinter. He says it’s easy to imagine groups
sacrificing and consuming the animals as a way to symbolically become wolves or dogs themselves. Bodies in Yamnaya graves on the western steppes frequently have pendants of dog canine teeth around their necks. Anthony says that all this offers solid archaeological evidence for the youthful “wolf packs” of Indo-European legends – and sees a link to the myth of the foundation of Rome. “You’ve got two boys, Romulus and Remus
and a wolf that more or less gives birth to them,” he says. “And the earliest legends of the foundation of Rome are connected with a large group of homeless young men who were given shelter by Romulus. But they then wanted wives, so they invited in a neighbouring tribe and stole all their women. You can see that
whole set of early legends as being connected possibly with the foundation of Rome by youthful war bands.

The tribes in Kazarstan, Mongol have still kept the tradition until now, getting women from the other tribes. of course not stealing.
If the ancient nomad people was mixed with any other women, losing their identity, it is fine to identify them by genetics. However, I think they did not lose their identity by keeping their tradition and their philosophy,even if their body became european or middle eastern people.

Same thing happened in Sultan bloodline of ottoman empire.
The last 35th sultan had only below 0.30% turk blood due to the fact that all queens were European. Was he regarded as European?
Thus, I think we need more focus upon their culture than genetics.

[Peterski]

And this is exactly what happened:

http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2016/09/30/078360

http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2016/0...europe-by.html

http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/e...78360.full.pdf

This is very easy to explain, if you know how early Indo-European societies worked. Indo-Europeans commonly practiced polygyny, which means that one man could have many wifes. The most powerful and influential men had the largest number of wives.

For example, chieftains could have 10 wifes each (or at least several).

However, the proportion of males to females in every population is always close to 50:50. So if only 1 man married 10 women, it means that 9 other men had to remain "singles". There were just not enough women in the population for them to marry.

And in my opinion, that was one of driving forces of Indo-European expansions.

Those low-status men, who could not find native Steppe wifes on the Steppe, had to:

1) Either kidnap wifes from somewhere else, and then bring them back to the Steppe;

OR:

2) Emigrate from the Steppe, invade another tribe, and capture their women as wifes.

In fact, genetic and archaeological data provides evidence, that both happened. The increase of CHG admixture among Steppe people, was due to kidnapping wifes from the Caucasus region, and then bringing them back to the Steppe. Later on, they stopped kidnapping & bringing wifes to the Steppe, and instead started emigrating from the Steppe in search of wifes to conquer. That was most likely due to improvements in technology (they acquired metals, horses, wheels and wagons - becoming more mobile). Before acquiring those technological advantages, they were only able to organize raids for women (quickly surprise-attacking a settlement of farmers, kidnapping women and food, then quickly running away back to the Steppe).

But after gaining an advantage in military power, they could conquer sedentary populations.

[Norse]

Ok 40%, but if they are the originals as claimed how do you go from 40% to 20% while increasing your HG %? And where did they get all the light eye and skin genes which everyone has today?

It is not something possible from simple mixing. Anyone supposed to be the origin of modern whites that short of a time back must be more pure not less. And those genes are not selected on, we can detect that. Even if they were it's too short a time. There has to be some other group.

In spain there's also r1b samples with basically zero ANE and it declines steadily going west.

Yamnaya are light skin and brown eyes. WHG have - supposedly - darker pigmentation and blue eyes. Thus the mixture of Yamnaya and WHG created the modern whites. Though I don't buy the darker pigmentation of WHG for a second, they are likely mixing up genes for hair with genes for skin.