Montenegrins are not Sarbi

[Laberia]

I think Montenegrins are of similar stock as Herzegovians moreso than serbs from Šumadija who look more Romanian to me but idk. I hope I didn't offend any Serbs here...

No my friend, you didn't offend nobody. Read this:
With a continuous excess of births over deaths, and of male over female children, the population of Servia rose from 2,161,961 in 1890 to 2,493,770 in 1900, and to about 2,750,000 in 1910. More than four-fifths of this number belong to the Serbo-Croatian branch of the Slavonic race; while the remainder is composed of about 160,000 Rumans, 47,000 gipsies, 8000 Austro-Hungarians and Germans, and 5000 Jews. Many Servian emigrants returned, after 1878, to the territories which the Treaty of Berlin restored to their country. These territories had been occupied, under Turkish rule, by Albanians, west of the Morava, and by Bulgarians, along the Nishava; but, after 1878, the Albanians withdrew, and the Bulgarians were absorbed. The Rumans reside principally in the north-east, near the borders of their native land, and are peasant farmers, like the Serbs. The gipsies occasionally settle down, forming separate camps or villages, but in most cases they prefer a wandering life. They are often admirable artisans and musicians, almost every town possessing a gipsy band. The Germans and AustroHungarians control a large share of the commerce of the country; the Jews, as elsewhere in the Balkans, are retail traders. AntiSemitism is not prevalent in Servia, owing to the smallness of the Jewish communities. The stature and features of the Serbs vary in different regions; but the northern peasantry are generally fairer and shorter than the mountaineers of the south. Those of the Shumadia are blue-eyed or grey-eyed. In many parts the prevailing types have been modified by intermarriage with Bulgars, Albanians and Vlachs; so that, along the Timok, for instance, it is impossible to make physiognomy a test of nationality. Even language does not afford a sure criterion, so nearly akin are many spoken dialects of Servian and Bulgarian.

http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Servia


My conclusions:

1. In the province of Servia (which encompassed mainly the lands of Pashaluk of Belgrade) there was a mixture of various people like: Vlachs, Albanians, Germans, Jews, Gypsies, etc. I find very significant the following extract: In many parts the prevailing types have been modified by intermarriage with Bulgars, Albanians and Vlachs; so that, along the Timok, for instance, it is impossible to make physiognomy a test of nationality.

2. The very fact that 'northerners' were anthropologically quite different from 'southerners' (with obvious highlander features) make very likely that Serbs were created by the mixture of Vlach, Albanians and some Bulgars!!!!

[Styrian Mujo]

Also I don't think old maps of medieval states (if accurate at all) are proof of the racial character of the people living in those regions. Slavs might have been the rulling class in these states but that does not mean they represented the majority of the population.

[poiuytrewq0987]

Also I don't think old maps of medieval states (if accurate at all) are proof of the racial character of the people living in those regions. Slavs might have been the rulling class in these states but that does not mean they represented the majority of the population.

Sure, that's why all Balkan Slavic states still speak Illyrian and Thracian.

[Szegedist]

Of course they are not.





Brb Orthodox slavic brotherhood.jpg

[Vm95]

Of course they are not.

Hungarians dont even exist as a ethnic group today, just linguistic, you are cum dumpster of your every neighbor.

The geography textbook for the 3rd grade of elementary school, in 1911, said:

In Montenegro live only true and pure Serbs who speak the Serbian language... Besides Montenegro there are more Serb lands in which our Serb brothers live... Some of them are as free as we are and some are subjugated to foreigners.
The 1909 census, undertaken by the Principality of Montenegro, recorded that 95% of the population spoke Serbian.

1756

In a letter to Justinian Bert, Montenegrin chieftains said: "We are of the Orthodox Christian faith and law of the Eastern Church, of the honorable and glorious Slav-Serb kin

1757

Jovan Stefanov Balevic of the Bratonozic clan, who later became a major in the Russian army wrote "A brief and objective description of the present state of Montenegro" in St. Petersburg in 1757, where it says:

All inhabitants of Montenegro are ethnically Slavic and confessionally Serb Orthodox. As they are incompetent in some skills it is because of their lack of school, but they are naturally capable, especially with weapons. [2]


The number of Montenegrin warriors who live free on the peaks of Montenegro, called by Turks disobedient, does not get over 5000. [2]


Montenegrins count among themselves neighbouring Slavs of different provenience: Kuci, Bratonozici, Donji and Gornji Vasojevici, Piperi, Rovcani, Moracani, Bjelopavlici, who are Serb Orthodox but Ottoman citizens. They, also, count Roman Catholics: Hoti, Klimenti, Grudi, Tuzi, Skrivali, Huzi, Maltezi, Kastrati and others who outnumber Montenegrins.[2]

1789

In June 1789, Montenegrin Chieftains, wrote to Russian Empress Katarina II, in the name of the entire Serb Montenegrin community: "We Serbs Montenegrins hope that we shall not be left without help" and "If we could have organization and munition, we would liberate our glorious Serb lands entirely from the Barbarian yoke (Ottoman Empire), together with our armed Serb brothers who aim to attack this enemy from all sides.
1826

According to letters to Russia by Bishop Petar I Petrović Njegoš from March 5, 1826, the people of Montenegro are Serb of Orthodox Christian faith.
1855

According to "paragraph 92" in the code of Prince Danilo, established 1855:
"Although there is no other nationality in this land except Serb nationality and no other religion except Eastern Orthodoxy..."
about Serbdom:
"...of our homogenous Serb nation. the Montenegrin prince has, in his heart, carved sense of love and devotion not only towards his people, but towards entire Serbdom and everything named and called - Serb."[3]
1882

Schwartz estimated in 1882 that the Princedom of Montenegro had 160,000 inhabitants. Although, a more usual estimate is that it was around 230,000 inhabitants.
1895

The inhabitants of Montenegro was said to be "pure Serbs" because who speak Serbian language and followers of the Eastern Orthodox Church. There is a Catholic and Muhammedan minority.[citation needed]
1900

In 1900, according to international sources, the Principality of Montenegro had 311,564 inhabitants. By religion:

293,527 Serbian Orthodox (94,21%)
12,493 Muslims (4,01%)
5,544 Roman Catholic (1,78%)

By literacy: - * 77% illiterate - * 71,528 (23%) literate
The Princedom had around 5,000 Albanians and a colony of 800 Romas.


1909



Map from 1910
Dark - Serbs; Light - Albanians


The 1909 official census was undertaken by the authorities of the Principality of Montenegro. Ethnicity was decided according to the mother tongue and religion, the official language being the Serbian language:
Total: 317,856 inhabitants. By language:

Serbs: ~95%
others mostly Albanians

By religion:

Orthodox Christians: 94.38%
others (mostly Muslims)

Conclusion:

Serbs (Orthodox Christians): ~95%
Others (Muslims; Albanians): ~5%


1914

The Cetinje government stated in the Code of Law in 1914 that there are around 500,000 citizens of Montenegro. It was declared that the term Montenegrin people can only refer to all citizens of the Kingdom of Montenegro, since a Montenegrin ethnicity doesn't exist and Montenegrins are ethnic Serbs.

[Szegedist]

^^ mamaligar prost, Romanians are a mix of Slavs Tatars Hungarians Cumans vlahs and most importantly gypsies.

Hungarian identity and nation is a lot older than the nomadic vlahs who roamed the Balkans , without a state like gypsies.

[Dunai]

Hungarians dont even exist as a ethnic group today, just linguistic, you are cum dumpster of your every neighbor.

Implying that anybody in this part of Europe should feel ashamed that their modern nation has its roots in various other ethnicities just makes you look dumb. Sorry to burst your purity bubble, but all modern nations in South-East and Central Europe are completely mixed among themselves. It's enough to take a brief look at history or genetic maps.

[Herr Abubu]

I totally agree with you. The main feature of a nation or ethnic group is the language. So, i don`t take seriously this genetic theories or even this legends of the older clans.
Said this, my opinion is that the today Montenegrins are slavised Albanians with some vlach input. And i invite you to read this document:

1332
Anonymous:
Initiative for Making the Passage

The 'Directorium ad passagium faciendum', which can be translated as 'Initiative for making the passage', is a mediaeval Latin manuscript (also available in an early French translation) attributed alternatively to a monk called Burcard (Brocardus Monacus / Frère Brochard) or to one William Adam (Guillelmus Adam / Guillaume Adam) (1).

On the Kingdom of Rascia and how it could easily be conquered

I would like to come back to the Kingdom of Rascia to show how it could be conquered. Indeed, the desire to invade is all that is needed for the country to be taken. In order to make this clear, I would like to present a number of brief suggestions for an invasion and a number of easily fulfilled conditions for a conquest.

The said kingdom has few if any fortifications at all. All that exists are farmhouses and cottages devoid of moats and outer walls. The buildings and palaces, both of the king and of the nobles, are made of straw and wood. I have never seen a palace or home there made of stone or of brick except in the coastal towns of the Latins. The said kingdom is rich in grain, wine, oil and meat. It is a pleasant place with water from springs and rivers flowing through it, a delightful land with woods, meadows, mountains, plains and valleys full of various species of wild beasts. In short, everything that grows there is of choice quality, in particular in areas along the coast. In the said kingdom, there are indeed five gold mines and an equal number of silver mines in which expert miners toil without interruption. There are also mixed deposits of silver and gold, which have recently been discovered at various and sundry sites, and huge dense forests. Whoever owns this kingdom will have a veritable jewel in his possession, select and precious for all times.

One factor, among others, which makes this kingdom easy to conquer, is that it is inhabited by two peoples, i.e. the Albanians and the Latins who, in their beliefs, their rites and their obedience, both abide by the Roman Catholic Church. Accordingly, they have archbishops, bishops and abbots, as well as religious and secular clerics of lower rank and status. The Latins have six towns with bishops: firstly Antibarum (Bar), the seat of the archbishop, then Chatarensis (Kotor), Dulcedinensis (Ulcinj), Suacinensis (Shas) (2), Scutarensis (Shkodra) and Drivascensis (Drisht) (3), which are inhabited by the Latins alone. Outside the town walls, the Albanians make up the population throughout the diocese. There are four Albanian towns: Polatum Maius (Greater Pult) (4), Polatum Minus (Lesser Pult), Sabatensis (Sapa) (5) and Albanensis (Albanopolis) (6) which, together with the towns of the Latins, are all legally subject to the Archbishop of Bar and his church as their metropolitan. The Albanians indeed have a language quite different from Latin. However they use Latin letters in all their books (7). The sway of the Latins is thus confined to the limits of their towns. Outside the towns, they do possess vineyards and fields, but there are no fortifications or villages actually inhabited by the Latins. The Albanians for their part, the larger of the two peoples, could assemble over fifteen thousand horsemen for warfare according to the custom and manner of the country, who would be courageous and industrious warriors. Since the said Latins and Albanians suffer under the unbearable yoke and extremely dire bondage of their odious Slav leaders whom they detest - the people being tormented, the clergy humiliated and oppressed, the bishops and abbots often kept in chains, the nobles disinherited and held hostage, episcopal and other churches disbanded and deprived of their rights, and the monasteries in decay and ruin - they would all to a man believe that they were consecrating their hands in the blood of the aforementioned Slavs if a French prince were to appear before them whom they could make leader of their war against the said evil Slavs, the enemies of our true faith. With the help of the aforementioned Albanians and Latins, one thousand French knights and five or six thousand foot soldiers could without a doubt easily conquer the whole length and breadth of this kingdom.


(1) On the authorship of the 'Directorium', cf. M. Šufflay, Pseudobrocardus..., in: Vjesnik kraljevskog hrvatskog slavonskog dalmatinskog zemeljskog archiva, Zagreb, 13 (1911), p. 142-150; A. Atiya, The Crusade in the Later Middle Ages, New York 1965, p. 95 106, 65 67.
(2) Settlement near the river Buna, on the Montenegrin side of the present border. At its zenith during the Middle Ages it was known as Suacium, Italian Suazzo, Sfazzi, French Soans, and now in Albanian as Shas and in Serbo-Croatian as Šas. The town was first documented in 1067 and began to decay around the end of the 14th century.
(3) Village on the river Kir, northeast of Shkodra.
(4) Pult (Polatum) is a region on the river Kir extending beyond Drisht to Prekal.
(5) Saba or Sapa was in the Zadrima region east of Shkodra, later to be part of the diocese of Sapa and Sarda (Sapatensis et Sardensis).
(6) Albanopolis has been traditionally identified with the village of Zgërdhesh, south of Kruja.
(7) For an interpretation of this sentence, cf. I. Zamputi, in: Hylli i Dritës, 1-2, 1995, p. 14-51.

[Extract from: Recueil des historiens des croisades. Documents arméniens. Tome second. Documents latins et français relatifs à l'Arménie, Paris 1906, p. 478 485. Translated from the Latin by Robert Elsie. First published in R. Elsie: Early Albania, a Reader of Historical Texts, 11th - 17th Centuries, Wiesbaden 2003, p. 28-30.]


P.S.
The latins mentioned in the text are not vlachs. The author in other pages of the book mention vlahs as a separate group.

Let me tell you something. The territory of today Montenegro is composed by three parts, which during the Middle Ages are know as:
1- The Western part, the coast was know as Albania Veneta, till Lustica peninsula.
2- The Southern part, the Indipendent Mountains, or Brda, where live this famous clans, which we know from books and legends that are just Albanians and latter during the Middle Ages until the beggining of XIX were assimilated from the orthodox church in slavs.
3- And the very core of Montenegro or Old Montenegro, Katunska Nahija, but during the Middle Ages was know just as Katund, or Katun (without this suffix ska or Nahija), an Albanian word which mean village in English.
This is history, not BS.
Here is the coin of Albania Veneta:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venetian_Albania

Venetian Albania (Italian: Albania Veneta) was the name for the possessions of the Republic of Venice on the Southeastern Adriatic coast (southernmost Dalmatia) that existed from 1420 to 1797. It consisted of the Bay of Kotor, although initially it covered the coastal area of what is now Montenegro and northern Albania, most of which were lost to the Ottoman Empire early on.

Geography

The term "Venetian Albania" was used by the Republic for their initial possessions that stretched from the southern borders of the Republic of Ragusa to Durazzo in coastal Albania (hence the name).[when?] The Venetian territories usually reached only 20 km from the Adriatic Sea. Between 1478 and 1571 the territories in what is today Albania were lost.[1] After 1573 the southern limit was moved to the village of Kufin near Budva, because of the Ottoman conquests of Antivari (Bar), Dulcigno (Ulcinj), Scutari (Shkodër), and Durazzo. The Venetian territory was then centered on the area of the Bay of Kotor, and included the towns of Kotor, Risan, Perast, Tivat, Herceg Novi, Budva, and Sutomore. The name continued to be used as a claimant to the Albanian coast.[clarification needed][citation needed]

Since we are talking about borders, Kufin is the Albanian word Kufi in Geg dialect.

History
The Venetians periodically controlled the small southern Dalmatian villages around the 10th century, but did not permanently assume control until 1420. The Venetians assimilated the Dalmatian language into the Venetian dialect quickly. The Venetian territories around Kotor lasted from 1420 to 1797 and were called Venetian Albania, a province of the Venetian Republic.[3][not in citation given]

In the early years of the Renaissance the territories under Venetian control included areas from actual coastal Montenegro to northern Albania until Durazzo: Venetians retained this city after a siege by the Ottoman Sultan Mehmed II in 1466 but it fell to Ottoman forces in 1501.

After 1797, the territory of "Venetian Albania" began stretching after the Republic of Ragusa, including the enclaves of Cattaro (Kotor) and Budua (Budva).

So, the creation of this enclave started from this southern dalmatian villages in north. And this enclave included all Venetian possessions in the coast of Albania. Durres(Durrazo), Vlore were part of Albania Veneta. Venetians knew very well who were the Albanians. And for this reason they didn`t includede in this enclave for example Corfu(Kerkyra), Paxo(Paxi) & Antipaxo, Teachi(Ithacha), Zante(Zakynthos), Santa Maura(Lefkada). But they included the coastal cities of Southern Epir, Chameria today part of Greece, like Prevezza, Vonizza(Vonitsa), etc.

This.