Which language is more similar to Catalan? Occitan or Castillian?

[Óttar]

In Dutch for instance, 'je/jij' became official standard tongue for the second person singular pronoun which actually is just Hollandic, but before the common population enjoyed education the upper class spoke a far less dumbed down version of the language. The German language for all of its worth survived such dumbing down effect, partly because it's not just spoken in a far more diverse area linguistically and also not just High German ones like Bavaria and Austria (which could potentially dumb down German were they the only ones or the most dominant ones).

I speak German and I am learning Dutch at the moment. I read an article that said that anti-German sentiment was high among the Dutch in the 70s and 80s. I cannot understand this as it is clear that Dutch and German exist on a continuum. Anyone who doesn't recognize this is a fool.

[Dandelion]

I speak German and I am learning Dutch at the moment. I read an article that said that anti-German sentiment was high among the Dutch in the 70s and 80s. I cannot understand this as it is clear that Dutch and German exist on a continuum. Anyone who doesn't recognize this is a fool.

Well, Dutch were weird in that era. They (babyboomers born after the War) were seemingly still butthurt over WWII whereas most people who experienced the Nazi occupation hold no such grudges. My grandparents even taught me how brutal the war was, but also ensured me that even back in the height of Hitler's reign, Germans as a whole shouldn't be judged as a collective and many were decent people also back then.
And then you had Dutch people (like The Lawspeaker here, born in the '80 possibly) still butthurt over WWII as the only Europeans. I guess it's a Protestant thing? The Lawspeaker being a latebloomer with that mentality due to his nostalgic nature

I generally prefer the Dutch over the Belgians in their mentality, but you have to be wary with the Dutch too. They can be like a flock of bisons running amok because their culture dictates them to have an opinion on everything, even when they're clueless and then they're like zombies aggressively berating the one going against the flow. In those moments Dutch are more narrow-minded than Belgians, where as generally Belgians are the clueless peasants otherwise. Dutch people are very dangerous and even aggressive when they are convinced they're right while being wrong and feel the support of the public opinion.

And yes, Dutch and German are very alike and our economic relevance made us to not adopt High German as the Low Germans have and thus speak our own language. I realise this very well. German as a standard language is more conservative and less dialectical than standard Modern Dutch. Mind you, modern Dutch as taught in school neither is all too dialectical, but Standard German barely is if any whereas Dutch has elements of dialect seeping in the standard language because of the pressure of the common people receiving education and unable to adopt a stricter standard.

[Melki]

Languedocian Occitan and Catalan are pretty close to each othereven though Catalan received some Castillan influences (just like Galician and Basque).
Very recently, France reorganized its regions: now there is a large entity officially named ”Occitanie” with Toulouse as administrative center. The French Catalan minority was very unhappy with the new name because they wanted to add ”Pays Catalan” to ”Occitanie”.
But the truth is that the Catalan part of France is too negligible to be taken into consideration.

[Rudel]

As a reference point :

[Jehan]

Of course it's a language. It has an actual literary tradition, it had proper institutions and so on ; which is more than most languages in Europe can claim these days.
Being eccentric, having dialects and being moribund doesn't make it less of a language.

I don't know what occitan really mean in english, but in french occitan isn't one language. The word describe a family of dialects. Here is the map o the dialects:

Unlike other Romance languages such as French or Spanish, there is no single written standard language called "Occitan"

source wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occitan_language

[Rudel]

That family of dialects is a language. It's simple linguistic methodology, doesn't deserve much of a debate. Though I can't stand the term Occitan myself. It's very Languedocian-centric.

Unlike other Romance languages such as French or Spanish, there is no single written standard language called "Occitan"

There's a standard shared legacy, but in modern times there are competing written standards, which is a very common issue. Even Breton has the problem, yet you're not stating that Breton isn't a language.

[Melki]

I don't know what occitan really mean in english, but in french occitan isn't one language. The word describe a family of dialects. Here is the map o the dialects:






source wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occitan_language

Provençal used to be the literary standard. But nowadays, Languedocian, more central, is considered to be the official variant of Occitan, taught at school and at university. Of course, Provençals strongly disagree, and many of them assert that their dialect is not a simple form of Occitan, but a language on its own, which is entirely wrong. Moreover, Provençal shares more similarities with Languedocian than Languedocian with Gascon.

[Rudel]

Provençal used to be the literary standard.

Not really. It's just that Provençal has been the only dialect in recent times to have a genuine literary output. But even during the heydays of the Félibrige, nobody was arguing for it to be the norm.
The only real standard there ever was, the classical Medieval tongue, was largely based on Limousin-Poitevin (the later one having disappeared with the War of a Hundred Years).

But nowadays, Languedocian, more central, is considered to be the official variant of Occitan, taught at school and at university.

Once again, it's a misconception. The Occitanist movement and its institutions are centered around Toulouse, the normalized Occitan it produced doesn't have widespread acceptance, even if it ironically enough lobbied the French state to be seen as the one standard.
The IEO is often perceived as a Southern Jacobin club, for good reasons.

Of course, Provençals strongly disagree, and many of them assert that their dialect is not a simple form of Occitan, but a language on its own, which is entirely wrong.

It comes down to historical elements. Nobody wants to be conflated with normalized Occitan and the afferent identity because it feels completely alien. Such feelings are also echoes in Gascony and Auvergne. Less so in Limousin.

Moreover, Provençal shares more similarities with Languedocian than Languedocian with Gascon.

Every dialect is closer to Languedocian than Gascon, since Gascon is entirely eccentric.

[Melki]

Thanks for these precisions.

I suspected there was some political activism behind that. In Toulouse, street names are always bilingual, when you are there you can feel the pride to be Occitan, much more than in Montpellier.
In Gascony, almost nobody gives a s*** about the Gascon dialect. In Bayonne, border town between the Basque Country and Gascony, the street panels are in 3 languages (French, Basque, Gascon), but it's because it was a Basque initiative.

There are different kinds of spoken dialects in Basque too, but the language officially taught is "Euskara batua" (Standard Basque) mainly based on Gipuzkoan dialect (the most central)..

I also thought that the North-Occitan dialects were as atypical as Gascon, the most similar variants of the family being Languedocian and Provençal.

[Rudel]

I suspected there was some political activism behind that.

It has a lot to do with the socialist/radical background of the South and Central West. The whole folk revival get into the mix in the 60s and it ended up giving birth to the Occitan movement. They even brought back the Albigensian crusade from the dead (something nobody cared about or remembered) to give it some historical backbone.
The whole Larzac struggle of the 70s is a practical expression of it.

It's a very stark contrast from Provence, where the whole movement for provincial identity stemmed from XIXth c. federalism and royalism (and it remains a right-wing stronghold to this day).

I also thought that the North-Occitan dialects were as atypical as Gascon, the most similar variants of the family being Languedocian and Provençal.

Not really, the gradient between dialects isn't linear. The ones with the most archaic features are Upper Provençal/Vivaro-Alpin (basically moutain Provençal) and Gascon. And on top of it there's a strong proto-Basque substrate to Gascon that gives it features similar to Iberic languages. The most pan-occitan sub-dialect is most likely Rouergat (in Aveyron).
In reality there's not much difference between Limousin and Provençal despite the distance.