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Thread: Origin of R1b-CTS9219+

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robocop View Post
    Nope man.
    Maybe for Christmas wish list.If you ever get your Gedmatch account you can try Eurogenes K36 and use Tolins mapping function. Really good for autochthonous I2 Euros like yourself.
    Anyway When you use it you can see where some ancient samples would plot very roughly. For example Villabruna R1b 14000 years old would plot in Sweden, across in Southern Finland and Baltic are very old R1b Steppe samples. This gives you an idea of 5000-14000 year old R1b From Villabruna Italy to Russian Steppe. You can see not plots in the Middle East, or Anatolia.



    Sample R1a cluster in green circle[Rise 598 Ukraine outlier]
    Comprised of samples Rise 431,Rise 61,Rise 386,I0419,I0432,
    Sample R1b cluster in yellow circle.
    Comprised of Villabruna, Khvalynsk,3-Yamnaya, 1-Poltavka
    2-R1b-L754's 1-R1b-L23* and 1-R1bZ2103* 2-R1b KMS-75's




    R1b-pop-IBS

    R1b-I0231-R1b-KMS-75


    R1b-L23[L51- Z2103-]

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    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian View Post
    Maybe for Christmas wish list.If you ever get your Gedmatch account you can try Eurogenes K36 and use Tolins mapping function. Really good for autochthonous I2 Euros like yourself.
    Anyway When you use it you can see where some ancient samples would plot very roughly. For example Villabruna R1b 14000 years old would plot in Sweden, across in Southern Finland and Baltic are very old R1b Steppe samples. This gives you an idea of 5000-14000 year old R1b From Villabruna Italy to Russian Steppe. You can see not plots in the Middle East, or Anatolia.

    Sample R1a cluster in green circle[Rise 598 Ukraine outlier]
    Comprised of samples Rise 431,Rise 61,Rise 386,I0419,I0432,
    Sample R1b cluster in yellow circle.
    Comprised of Villabruna, Khvalynsk,3-Yamnaya, 1-Poltavka
    2-R1b-L754's 1-R1b-L23* and 1-R1bZ2103* 2-R1b KMS-75's




    R1b-pop-IBS

    R1b-I0231-R1b-KMS-75


    R1b-L23[L51- Z2103-]
    Well that looks great. Truly

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    well

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skerdilaid View Post
    Where do you thing this specific branch originated and how it expanded, also if you possibly can, mention how its branches BY611, BY250 and Y5587 expanded.
    Until we get more ancient samples we can only guess. However if you look at the Tree I posted you can see 7822=2110
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z2110/
    Do you know what Z2110*means?

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    So you think a steppe migration is more plausible or anatolian? Both routes could be IE related though

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robocop View Post
    Well Hittites (who came with Indo-European invasion) 1750 BC to Anatolia (Hittite language is the oldest known IE lang.) were probably R1b, considering the high percentage of R1b in the regions they settled, as well as Lydians and Lycians who arrived 1450 BC.

    For now, I am talking about this entire R1b branch, without entering into subclades, they could have invaded northern Anatolia by crossing the Caucasus, sailing across the sea, or going around via the steppes through the Bosphorus.

    Who can say here without a doubt that R1b-CTS9219 couldn't have any connections to all this invents?

    Especially having in mind how Hittites were destroyed (by "Sea people", around 1250 BC, as well as Myceneans), so we can look on this problem of R1b-CTS9219 origin in two ways if you are following me about this with Hittites, they could have either went to Caucasus after destruction, went back, or they also migrated to Europe, why not?

    Just asking? This just came to my mind.
    Indo-Aryan Hittites were not R1b, but proto-Turkic Hattis were, from whom they got their name btw.

    Do not you hear their footsteps? They come, the fighters of justice.
    In the name of the Merciful, the Turks are coming.
    (Goethe)



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    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian View Post
    Until we get more ancient samples we can only guess. However if you look at the Tree I posted you can see 7822=2110
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z2110/
    Do you know what Z2110*means?
    Take a good guess, it won't hurt you Yes. Paragroup, not positive for its sub-clades. Why?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MONEY View Post
    So you think a steppe migration is more plausible or anatolian? Both routes could be IE related though
    As far as indo-european languages are concerned, Anatolian theory is not even taken under consideration anymore, basically dead. The only strong link between Anatolia and Europe goes back to Neolithic period, genetically speaking, which of course can't explain indo-european languages and their expansion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skerdilaid View Post
    As far as indo-european languages are concerned, Anatolian theory is not even taken under consideration anymore, basically dead. The only strong link between Anatolia and Europe goes back to Neolithic period, genetically speaking, which of course can't explain indo-european languages and their expansion.
    R1b-KMS-67 are stratified under R1a-Z93 in Sintashta region. R1b Z2103 is about 1000+/- yrs older than it's R1a cousin[ R1a-93], found near fortified settlements of Arkaim region[thought by many to be leading candidate for Proto-Indo-Iranian speakers.]



    Modern day frequencies of R1a and R1b around Sintashta are roughly as follows, Burzyanskiy is in the middle of Sintashta region, you can see roughly .52/.31 ratio, R1b-M73& R1b-KMS-67_ R1a-Z93.



    CTS-7822 is = Z2110

    Nothing is in stone. However, some of these samples may be upstream from us,[until further testing we won't know for sure]
    _f3a3b. R1b-Z2103 > Z2106 >Z2109 > CTS7822 > CTS7556 > Y5592* Sweden
    _f3a3b. R1b-Z2103 > Z2106 >Z2109 > CTS7822 > CTS7556 > Y5592 > CTS9219 * Germany

    The branch of CTS-7822=Z2110 is farther upstream.
    From what I understand one sample has gone through bigY test and confirmed Z-2110* from Switzerland! Just something to keep in mind as we wait for more data from both Western and Eastern Europe-Steppe]
    There is always the 14000+/- year old Villabruna R1b sample. So until we get more samples we can try our best to guess the migration.

    https://www.familytreedna.com/public...ame=ycolorized
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by ALL; 11-22-2016 at 11:29 PM.

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    It's quite possible that CTS9219 was a minor lineage in central Europe, or just east of it, during EBA and expanded during MBA from there considering its distribution today: BY611 seems to have descended down into the Balkans, BY250 spread pretty much all over Europe while Y5587 seems to have not moved around much, basically stayed in Eastern Europe.
    Last edited by Skerdilaid; 11-23-2016 at 05:34 PM.

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