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Thread: What is more frequent in Argentina and Uruguay? Full Blood Spaniards or Full Blood Italians?

  1. #11
    Veteran Member Argentano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tobi View Post
    Yes, the majority of isolated communities are of them.

    My ex is from one community originally (the community is neighbouring my grandsfather's farm); they are lombardians, were very isolated untill the last generation like cousin marrying to cousin just to never mix with non-lombardians.
    nah that would be super weird here. Argentina is very different to Brazil in this regard. For example most of my friends (8/10) have italian surnames but nobody talks about italy or feels italian or whatever. Some even have italian grandparents. Me too i rarely talk about italy IRL. I do it here because this is an european cultural comunity and people ask about those things.

    I still think it has to do with the amount of foreigners and the need to argentinize them

    The modern Argentine state came into being by articulating a particular model of capital accumulation and a certain social image regarding Argentina’s place in the world that has lasted until the present time: Argentina as “breadbasket of the world.”
    But, as is the case for the key dates to follow, different migratory processes must also be taken into account when constructing a generally accepted national narrative. During this first period, it was the shiploads of Europeans disembarking in Buenos Aires. The process was certainly not smooth: union and political leaders and anarchists from abroad were persecuted, their presence as foreigners on Argentine soil being contrasted unfavorably to the nationalistic depiction of criollos and gauchos. This occurred in a context in which 70 percent of the workforce in Buenos Aires was foreign born. But during this period, and especially after mass migration from abroad had ceased, history books viewed the European immigrant as indispensable for progress and modernization (see Rofman and Romero 1973). Indeed, immigration had the dual objective of rapidly increasing the population and, above all, “consolidating Europe’s civilizing influence” (Halperín Donghi 1987, 201). Many xenophobic characteristics were reworked when incorporated into the definitive narrative of the birth of the Argentine nation: the immigrants became an integral part of the modern nation-state; the need for a workforce became translated into the slogans “settle the desert” and “to govern is to settle”1 (expressed in the 1853 Constitution, which guaranteed basic rights to “all men—and not just citizens—in the world who want to live on Argentine soil”). This led to one of the largest mass migrations in modern history, in proportional terms. Argentina was a country that, in comparison to its native population, received one of the largest contingents of European immigrants ever recorded. It is also the country that, of the immigrants who came, retained the least number: between 1870 and 1929, the percentage of immigrants staying on was 54 percent, a considerably lower percentage than the 66 percent retained by the United States during the same period (Torrado 2003, 94). This is the framework within which the modern state developed its nation-building strategy of “Argentinization.” Along with public education, the army (which employed universal conscription) became one of the key bulwarks against cosmopolitan tendencies (see Rouquié 1981). This Argentinization of European immigrants became part of the progress promised by the nation. In spite of its conflicts and contradictions, then, the immigrant process was an integral part of the story of how the Argentine nation was born. The public school is a condensed version of the national equation according to which cultural homogenization carries with it the implicit promise of social mobility. Spreading quickly, public education became a source of new historical narratives whose protagonists were national heroes; it was also a source of citizenship and a mechanism for social mobility. That these narratives were credible and became fixed in the public mind is owing to the existence of other rights and opportunities that were becoming increasingly available. And this positive image of public education has lasted: even in the worst moments of the crises to come, the student population continued to grow, the poorest sectors of the population entering the educational system and doing everything possible to stay there. As a result of the significance education has in Argentina, research shows that, unlike the case in other Latin American countries, even among the most marginalized sectors of society in the 1990s, education was seen as the most important path to social mobility and respect; in other words, in spite of being in crisis, faith in public schools has been maintained
    http://samples.sainsburysebooks.co.u...ple_579715.pdf

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    Loved by all portuguese members Tobi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Argentano View Post
    nah that would be super weird here. Argentina is very different to Brazil in this regard. For example most of my friends (8/10) have italian surnames but nobody talks about italy or feels italian or whatever. Some even have italian grandparents. Me too i rarely talk about italy IRL. I do it here because this is an european cultural comunity and people ask about those things.

    I still think it has to do with the amount of foreigners and the need to argentinize them



    http://samples.sainsburysebooks.co.u...ple_579715.pdf
    I think they don't feel conected to Italy anymore. They can't even speak the dialect in that generation and marry to a non-italian is also "okay".

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    Veteran Member Desperado's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tobi View Post
    I think they don't feel conected to Italy anymore. They can't even speak the dialect in that generation and marry to a non-italian is also "okay".
    My relatives in Argentina and Uruguay feel connected to us as a family and we still correspond, but they all identify with their respective nationalities and only speak Spanish. I think this is an interesting attitude to have.
    Spoiler!

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    Veteran Member Argentano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Desperado View Post
    My relatives in Argentina and Uruguay feel connected to us as a family and we still correspond, but they all identify with their respective nationalities and only speak Spanish. I think this is an interesting attitude to have.
    when my Abruzzese grandmother (italian born) speaks with her sisters in Italy she speaks in Spanish and her sister in Italian XD

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    Veteran Member Desperado's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Argentano View Post
    when my Abruzzese grandmother (italian born) speaks with her sisters in Italy she speaks in Spanish and her sister in Italian XD
    yeah lol we do the same, gotta love mutual intelligibility
    Spoiler!

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    Loved by all portuguese members Tobi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Desperado View Post
    My relatives in Argentina and Uruguay feel connected to us as a family and we still correspond, but they all identify with their respective nationalities and only speak Spanish. I think this is an interesting attitude to have.
    Yes, it is.
    It's interesnting have contact with the whole family, even if they are distant cousins.

    Germans in southern Brazil are still more isolated than northern italians.
    My ex had an aunt who married to a non-white brazilians, she was expelled of the community by her parents and disinherit. As I said, they were more closed. Now it's "okay" to them (at least in this community) be in a relationship with a non-italian and even with a non-white.

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    Veteran Member Argentano's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Desperado View Post
    My relatives in Argentina and Uruguay feel connected to us as a family and we still correspond, but they all identify with their respective nationalities and only speak Spanish. I think this is an interesting attitude to have.
    I have noticed that the italian Argentina/Uruguayan seems to be more integrated into their new nation but the italian brazilian/american seems to be more attached or reinforce their italian identity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tobi View Post
    I think they don't feel conected to Italy anymore. They can't even speak the dialect in that generation and marry to a non-italian is also "okay".
    As I know many Italian-Brazilians of Venetian/Trentino/Lombard stock who live in Southern Brazil (Rio Grande do Sul and Santa Caterina) still feel connected to Italy, especially to their native regions. I know a family from there who is living in Italy.

    A couple of friends of mine are Argentinians who live in Italy, they are both a mix of Italian and Spanish ancestry, and they feel connected to both Italy and Spain and they both speak Italian and Spanish (the latter was obvious).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Argentano View Post
    I have noticed that the italian Argentina/Uruguayan seems to be more integrated into their new nation but the italian brazilian/american seems to be more attached or reinforce their italian identity.
    In Brazil that might be the case mostly in small communities, then you have areas like São Paulo and other medium/large cities where lots have Italian ancestry/surnames and they are quite dettached from the old country in a cultural sense, even because most people have more than 1 european in those places.

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    Loved by all portuguese members Tobi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oddone View Post
    As I know many Italian-Brazilians of Venetian/Trentino/Lombard stock who live in Southern Brazil (Rio Grande do Sul and Santa Caterina) still feel connected to Italy, especially to their native regions. I know a family from there who is living in Italy.

    A couple of friends of mine are Argentinians who live in Italy, they are both a mix of Italian and Spanish ancestry, and they feel connected to both Italy and Spain and they both speak Italian and Spanish (the latter was obvious).
    Yes, it's true. The majority speak the dialect from their original region.

    An italo-brazilian family from my city (parent's friends) just spend more than 10.000 euros these days to get a italian citizenship (in a fast way) and rent a house in Italy (forgot the city); they probably will arrive this year in Italy.
    They are just going to Italy because they want to live in Italy and not to get a better life or whatever.

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