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Thread: Same sex marriage - Arguments for and against

  1. #21
    Veteran Member Petros Agapetos's Avatar
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    Default Same-Sex Marriage

    Same-sex marriage (also called gay marriage) is the union of two individuals of the same sex in a marital relationship, with the full legal rights and responsibilities allotted to this contract in a given jurisdiction. Legally defined marriage of homosexual couples is limited to a minority of jurisdictions at this time; more common is a "civil union," which includes many of the all-important legal trappings, without the title "marriage" and the religious overtones some think are implied by the word.



    Supporters of same-sex marriage may refer to it as "marriage equality," while opponents may call it "redefining marriage," or may use scare quotes (i.e., same-sex "marriage").

    Already as of July 2015, the institution of traditional marriage has been improved destroyed in twenty-one countries. As a result, millions of poor innocent people around the world have been forced to watch their gay friends and neighbors declare their loving commitment for one another publicly. This, of course, is a sign of progress in society the Satan. Marriage has been shifting from a religiously-dictated ritual to a social construct that is no longer related to the personal beliefs, or to any ritualism specific to organized religion. Disgusting!

    Since the news media and partisan groups tend to treat both of these topics as a single issue, this article will do the same. Let us acknowledge at the outset, though, that conflating civil unions with marriage, and the rights allotted by marriage with the institution of marriage, is erroneous, and a common rhetorical trick used by conservative commentators. Let us further acknowledge that this conflation (or lack thereof) is precisely the reason for modern court rulings about equality of gay citizens if they must have a "separate but equal" union, i.e., an alternative to marriage.

    There are several religious groups which endorse or carry out gay marriages (Though many, particularly the Christian groups, have enjoyed yet another endured a schism when they chose to do so) including Episcopalians, Presbyterians Quakers, Unitarian Universalists, Eckists, Ralians, Druids, Native American faiths with two-spirit traditions, certain Reform Jewish Rabbis and Wiccans.

  2. #22
    Non-hoxhaist Hoxhaism's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Petros Agapetos View Post
    If people want to get married, even if they of the same gender, there is no good reason to stop them. Therefore gay marriage should be allowed.
    Exactly.
    No one should be making some sort of decision on legalising gay marraige simply because of their religious beliefs.

    If you do not want to violate your "God", don't marry with the same gender, but it is selfish and beyond ignorant to want to illegalize gay marraige for the LGTB+.

  3. #23
    Veteran Member Petros Agapetos's Avatar
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    Equality of rights of all people before the law, regardless of sexual orientation

    The argument for equality is the most compelling and obvious for allowing same-sex marriage. Most laws in the Western world are designed to be inclusive and protective of all, so it makes little sense to deny a group of people the legal protection and support that a marriage provides.

    Some, however, object to equality as an argument for same-sex marriage. They believe that if homosexuality deserves equal protection, then, logically, deviant practices such as incest or bestiality must be allowed the same equal protection. Their belief is that if two adults love each other, that is insufficient grounds to allow marriage—siblings who love each other cannot marry, for example, and an adult who loves a child or their golden retriever cannot marry them. Incest (in the meaning of sexual encounter between 2 closely related beings capable of producing a child), however, differs from same-sex marriage in that there is a higher than usual risk that a child born to the closely related couple could suffer genetic defects. Bestiality and adult-child marriages are also a violation of informed consent, which is the biggest flaw of that argument. Another basic idea, is that when many women got the right to vote a few decades ago, It didn't follow up with dogs getting that right, nor the right to drive cars. Why? Because dogs are not sapient beings with civil rights akin to those of human beings.

    In these contexts, the only difference between a gay and most heterosexual marriage is that, well, "baby can't form."

  4. #24
    Veteran Member Petros Agapetos's Avatar
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    Basic human rights
    A human right, by definition, extends to all humans. Freely choosing one's own spouse, regardless of gender or status, is a fundamental human right. However, social conservatives believe that claims to human rights may be mitigated by moral barriers. They argue that just as humans cannot choose to marry children or siblings, they likewise should not be able to marry someone of the same gender, and rinse/repeat etc.

    Happiness
    Being married to the partner of your preferred gender allows participants a much happier domestic life, and better sex. Or at least, sex with a gender you're not desperately unattracted to.

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    Veteran Member Petros Agapetos's Avatar
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    Same benefits as opposite-sex marriage

    The benefits that people ascribe to opposite-sex marriage - greater commitment, a better place to raise children, a more fulfilling and satisfactory existence etc. - ought to be available for same-sex partners who want to get married. There is no evidence, outside the opinions of certain pundits and propaganda from the right-wing, that a marriage between two women or two men is less beneficial to society than a heterosexual one. This argument has been used by UK Prime Minister and Conservative Party leader David Cameron, who has said that "Conservatives believe in the ties that bind us; that society is stronger when we make vows to each other and support each other. So I don’t support gay marriage despite being a Conservative. I support gay marriage because I’m a Conservative." This had brought criticism from leading British figures in the Church of England and the Roman Catholic Church

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    Veteran Member Petros Agapetos's Avatar
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    Religious freedom

    Many Christians attempt to argue that, since their opposition to gay marriage is based on religious grounds, allowing gay marriage or prohibiting discrimination against gays is somehow infringing upon their religious liberty.

    The short answer to this is: "Tough!"
    The long answer is: "Tough shit!"

    The longer answer is that describing hatred or discrimination as religiously-motivated does not make it any less evil. Rigid gender roles and discrimination against people of different races have also been justified on the basis of religion...but they are still wrong. Mass murder and slavery have been justified on the basis of religion. That doesn't make them right, however. This is a basic underpinning of a pluralist society. Where there are multiple versions of "reality" and "morality," the one that should be used to form laws is the one that doesn't hurt people. This is the essential thinking behind laws such as the establishment clause or any law that separates church and state.
    In the US specifically, every citizen has the right to "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness", any such activity that could interfere with those basic rights is prohibited: the whole "your right to swing your fist ends where my face begins" idea. The legal answer is that, regardless of religion, when a discriminatory action is identified, Congress has the power by the Fourteenth Amendment to eradicate that evil. Further, free exercise does not include hate crimes. Finally, speech against homosexuality - like all hate speech - is protected by the First Amendment, to a degree. Combined with the issue that, at the federal level, Congress is not allowed to pass laws that are purely for religious purposes because of the First Amendment, and religious opposition has no legal ground to stand on. This also applies at the state level with the inclusion of the Fourteenth Amendment, prohibiting rights being denied without a secular cause (due process). And, in many cases, people don't care if [insert religion here] recognizes a gay couple's marriage; they tend to be more focused on their government recognizing their marriage. So religious freedom is unharmed, so long as it does not infringe upon another's freedom. John Stuart Mill would be proud.

  7. #27
    Veteran Member Petros Agapetos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Petros Agapetos View Post
    Which of these arguments listed so far, do you find compelling still.
    If there is, please quote my comment, and tell me why you still don't support same sex marriage.
    Do you support same sex marriage?
    What reasons do you give?
    What justification do you have for having the beliefs that you do?
    Are you open to change your mind on this issue?
    What is it that can change your current position on the question: scientific evidence, philosophical argument, persuasive reasons, etc.?

  8. #28
    Veteran Member Petros Agapetos's Avatar
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    Possible equal protection arguments

    The easiest, most open-and-shut case for gay marriage goes like this: "prohibiting gay marriage classifies on the basis of sexual orientation. Sexual orientation discrimination is repugnant to the Constitution. Please allow gay marriage, or allow civil unions that confer the same benefits." This makes the most sense, and is the easiest formulation to state. However, the issue is a little harder...

    The preceding argument is an equal protection argument. However gay rights have, thus far, only been advocated on substantive due process grounds (building from the due process clause), as in Lawrence v. Texas. The same case ardently refused to address gay rights as an equal protection issue, and refused especially to suggest that gay rights deserve any special protection under the equal protection clause. Without this special protection (strict scrutiny, hopefully at some point) such rights can be removed or abridged with a merely pretextual reason, effectively preventing an equal protection argument for gay marriage from succeeding.

    Some hope may be had, though; by way of implication in Romer v. Evans the Supreme Court intimated that homosexuality may be entitled to a higher form of protection, noting that "animus laid bare" is not enough to justify discrimination. This suggestion at least leaves the door open for an equal protection argument.

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    I am for it. I do not want others to interfere and dictate how I shoud live my life, and it would be hypocrisy to be against it for that reason. What happens in others bedroom between consenting adults I do not care about. I say live and let live.

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    I have no problem with gay marriage (It's not that I will support it , or rally for them or something).
    Gay relationships always happened and will always happen, so its not bad if they are also legaly together the one with the other (less whorish behavior, too).
    But I'm against adoption from gay couples.
    Quote Originally Posted by peaceandfriendship View Post
    BTW - you having a picture of Pyrrhus as your avatar is the Albanian equivalent of Michael Jackson bleaching his skin white.

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