Is England a Truly germanic country?

[Peterski]

so maybe it's possible that increasing Med. admixture in West. Europe had local origin

Modern English have more of Med admixture than Britons from ca. 150 BC - 50 AD.

So it wasn't of local origin but had to come from somehwere in continental Europe.

==========================

Iron Age Celtic Britons (Hinxton-4 and Hinxton-1) in Dodecad V3 calculator:

Hinxton-1 (Celtic Briton):

Kit T232503

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 West_European 56.27
2 Mediterranean 23.86
3 East_European 9.35
4 West_Asian 8.27
5 Palaeo_African 0.81
6 South_Asian 0.79
7 Neo_African 0.41
8 Northwest_African 0.26

Hinxton-4 (Celtic Briton):

Kit F999925

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 West_European 53.13
2 Mediterranean 25.96
3 East_European 10.62
4 West_Asian 6.95
5 South_Asian 2.19
6 Neo_African 0.7
7 Northwest_African 0.29
8 Palaeo_African 0.11
9 East_African 0.05

Hinxton-2 (Anglo-Saxon):

Kit F999921

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 West_European 58.17
2 Mediterranean 20.37
3 East_European 12.4
4 West_Asian 5.26
5 South_Asian 1.38
6 Northeast_Asian 0.85
7 East_African 0.82
8 Neo_African 0.53
9 Palaeo_African 0.22

In Dodecad V3, the main difference between Celts and Anglo-Saxons is:

1) Britons had more of "Mediterranean" and of "West Asian"

2) Anglo-Saxon immigrants had more of "Eastern European"

[Fantomas]

But it was not mostly Irish MN. It was mostly Central European MN.

Unsurprisingly, the pattern of haplotypic affinity of Ballynahatty
among modern European populations is strongly correlated
to that of the earlier Neolithic samples (SI Appendix, Fig.
S14.2; r > 0.74, P < 10−7), with southern Mediterranean samples
in each analysis showing highest levels of chunk copying. However,
some differences are discernable; the Hungarian and Stuttgart
Neolithic genomes tend toward higher values in eastern Mediterranean
(Sicilian, Italian, and Greek samples; Fig. 3 and SI Appendix,
Fig. S14.1), and the Irish Neolithic has highest values in the west
(Sardinian and Spanish). A further difference lies in the comparison
of each to the affinities shown by the Luxembourg WHG, Loschbour,
which shows no correlation in its modern affinities with the
earlier continental Neolithics but does show a significant relationship
(P = 5.4 × 10−4) with those of Ballynahatty, undoubtedly because
of greater WHG admixture in her ancestry.

Yes, there's a difference between Atlantic and Danubian Neolithic settlers, but not decisive



BTW Coon is also described this difference, however both were obviously of Med. race

[Peterski]

Modern English have even more of "Mediterranean" and "West Asian" in Dodecad V3 than Celtic Britons.

At least most of them do.

[Fantomas]

Modern English have more of Med admixture than Britons from ca. 150 BC - 50 AD.

So it wasn't of local origin but had to come from somehwere in continental Europe.

Anyway there's a too little input for some unambiguous conclusions. I'd like to see Iron age and post-Roman and medieval samples analysis from western Britain and northern and western France. I would not exclude that encreasing Med. component is the result of population movement from West of Europe to eastern England and Rhineland and has no relation to Romans.

[Fantomas]

Is England truly germanic?

Discuss

Leyland vs Volvo
SA-80 vs G-36
Tony Blair vs Angela Merkel
Alfred the Great vs Cnut the Great
Hugh Grant vs Dolph Lundgren
English football team vs German football team
Kelly Sotherton vs Carolina Cluft
Old Mini vs modern Mini
Old Rolls-Royce vs modern Rolls-Royce
Basset hound vs German shepherd
Oasis vs Rammstein
Lucas vs Electrolux
--------------------
No, England is not Germanic

[Catkin]

We haven't changed all that much

Adding my Dodecad V3 results:

Hinxton-4 (Celtic Briton):

Kit F999925

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent. Catkin
1 West_European 53.13. 53.58
2 Mediterranean 25.96. 25.44
3 East_European 10.62. 10.95
4 West_Asian 6.95. 9.33
5 South_Asian 2.19. 0.00
6 Neo_African 0.7. 0.12
7 Northwest_African 0.29. 0.00
8 Palaeo_African 0.11. 0.14
9 East_African 0.05. 0.00

Though I also score closer to modern Germanics:

Eurogenes K15

1 North_Sea 38.73
2 Atlantic 25.96
3 Baltic 11.50
4 West_Med 8.91
5 Eastern_Euro 7.87
6 West_Asian 5.33

Using 1 population approximation:
1 North_Dutch @ 3.776241
2 Orcadian @ 4.942493
3 Danish @ 5.720703
4 Southwest_English @ 5.983684
5 West_Scottish @ 6.010221
6 Irish @ 6.110632
7 Southeast_English @ 6.181015
8 Norwegian @ 6.368237
9 West_Norwegian @ 6.582302
10 North_German @ 7.492302
11 Swedish @ 7.758967
12 West_German @ 9.220917
13 South_Dutch @ 10.384365
14 North_Swedish @ 12.167533
15 French @ 14.736400
16 East_German @ 15.707479
17 Southwest_Finnish @ 18.724617
18 Hungarian @ 20.895802
19 Austrian @ 21.548243
20 Finnish @ 21.809958

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Southwest_English +50% West_Norwegian @ 3.206185

Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Orcadian +25% Southwest_English +25% Swedish @ 3.174271

Using 4 populations approximation:
1 North_Dutch + Orcadian + Southwest_English + Swedish @ 3.136070
2 Orcadian + Orcadian + Southwest_English + Swedish @ 3.174271
3 North_Dutch + Orcadian + Southwest_English + West_Norwegian @ 3.184527
4 Southwest_English + Southwest_English + West_Norwegian + West_Norwegian @ 3.206185
5 North_Dutch + Norwegian + Orcadian + Southwest_English @ 3.210788

[Jackson]

Modern English have more of Med admixture than Britons from ca. 150 BC - 50 AD.

So it wasn't of local origin but had to come from somehwere in continental Europe.

==========================

Iron Age Celtic Britons (Hinxton-4 and Hinxton-1) in Dodecad V3 calculator:

Hinxton-1 (Celtic Briton):

Kit T232503

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 West_European 56.27
2 Mediterranean 23.86
3 East_European 9.35
4 West_Asian 8.27
5 Palaeo_African 0.81
6 South_Asian 0.79
7 Neo_African 0.41
8 Northwest_African 0.26

Hinxton-4 (Celtic Briton):

Kit F999925

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 West_European 53.13
2 Mediterranean 25.96
3 East_European 10.62
4 West_Asian 6.95
5 South_Asian 2.19
6 Neo_African 0.7
7 Northwest_African 0.29
8 Palaeo_African 0.11
9 East_African 0.05

Hinxton-2 (Anglo-Saxon):

Kit F999921

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 West_European 58.17
2 Mediterranean 20.37
3 East_European 12.4
4 West_Asian 5.26
5 South_Asian 1.38
6 Northeast_Asian 0.85
7 East_African 0.82
8 Neo_African 0.53
9 Palaeo_African 0.22

In Dodecad V3, the main difference between Celts and Anglo-Saxons is:

1) Britons had more of "Mediterranean" and of "West Asian"

2) Anglo-Saxon immigrants had more of "Eastern European"

Going from memory (I don't have access to the information directly atm, although i will have to dig out of a couple of books of mine) the city areas of Roman Britain were quite 'diverse' going by cemetery populations, in terms of material culture and isotopic analysis. Iirc a large minority (probably around a third) came from outside of Britain, almost all from elsewhere in Europe but with a tendency towards the Mediterranean region. Of course there was that recent find of a Syrian/Near eastern person in Roman York too. Although many of the cities in Roman Britain were pretty much 'garden cities' with relatively low population, some of that likely filtered down into rural areas as time went on. Then of course there are trade, political and cultural links to more southern areas (particularly France) since then that together probably account for most of that increased Mediterranean component in the last 2000 years. Although somewhat slow and subtle compared to changes in previous millenia.
I'll see if i can dig out a couple of my old books and provide some details soon.
I suppose given continuous low-level migration between countries/people over many centuries it's not surprising that people tend to become more similar to those that they are in contact with the most.

[Melki]

Language barely germanic (tons of lattin, french influences)
Physical appearance of people is clearly different from what you find in other germanic countries.
Culture and social dynamics are different again, the english in the same way as the Irish, Americans, Australians,etc love to do smalltalk and have a more complex a developed sense of humor which they feel the need to share. IN germanic nations people avoid smalltalk and prefer to keep distance, and directness is more appreciated over politenes.

Is England truly germanic? I believe asides the language factor there are several counties who are more close to the Real Germanic homelands in everything but language than england really is.

Discuss

You perfectly summed up the problem. England is the odd member of the family. The consequence of being insulars? Even Poles and Czechs behave in a much more "Germanic" way...

[Rethel]

Even Poles and Czechs behave in a much more "Germanic" way...

What do you mean?

Moreover I think that Mecca should be demolished!

[Melki]

What do you mean?

Moreover I think that Mecca should be demolished!

Why would like to destroy Mecca, mister Teutonic Knight ? Would like Muslims to sack Częstochowa? No? Then learn to be tolerant like our English brothers...