Why does it bother people so much that Greeks are genetically north of South Italians?

[Sikeliot]

I will not say "Slavicized" but just, northward plotting. You can decide if it is Slavic input, ancient Indo-European, Dorian, or whatever. Why is this a source of contention, why is it so hotly disputed and people put up so much resistance to the idea?

Genetically on PCA plots, GEDmatch oracles, etc, they are significantly northeast shifted of southern Italians, they are the equivalent of mixing a Sicilian with an Eastern European grandparent (or intermediate between Sicily and Bulgaria), they have a lot more haplogroups such as R1a and I2 than do Sicilians, and frankly, this shows in their appearance.

Why is this an issue? Specifically got my eyes on you, Turkish users, Artabro, and Tooting Carmen.

[Tooting Carmen]

I am not bothered by it. It is just you try to extrapolate too much from such data and just assume that Greeks ought to look much lighter and more Slavic-influenced than Southern Italians in the process, which is not really the case.

[Sikeliot]

I am not bothered by it. It is just you try to extrapolate too much from such data and just assume that Greeks ought to look much lighter and more Slavic-influenced than Southern Italians in the process, which is not really the case.

I didn't say "lighter and more Slavic influenced" but rather that their faces look, on average, more European. That is to be expected when they have double the North European input, and plot significantly north of them.

[Tooting Carmen]

I didn't say "lighter and more Slavic influenced" but rather that their faces look, on average, more European. That is to be expected when they have double the North European input, and plot significantly north of them.

OK, if you think that Greek women usually look like this:


And that South Italian women usually look like this:


Then go ahead. Just don't expect the rest of us to be carried along with this fantasy.

[Sikeliot]

OK, if you think that Greek women usually look like this:


And that South Italian women usually look like this:


Then go ahead. Just don't expect the rest of us to be carried along with this fantasy.

No, but between the two, there is more influence of the former in Greeks because they plot genetically north. If you have to resort to extreme hyperbole of what I have said, then it shows something about the simple fact of the relative genetics of the two groups fundamentally bothers you at your core. You have said before your idea of Greece is Cyprus, based on people you have seen in the UK.

Going the other way, southern Italians plot closer to the Levant than 90% of Greeks do, and this shows in their appearance.

[Tooting Carmen]

No, but between the two, there is more influence of the former in Greeks because they plot genetically north. If you have to resort to extreme hyperbole of what I have said, then it shows something about the simple fact of the relative genetics of the two groups fundamentally bothers you at your core. You have said before your idea of Greece is Cyprus, based on people you have seen in the UK.

Going the other way, southern Italians plot closer to the Levant than 90% of Greeks do, and this shows in their appearance.

I acknowledge that Cyprus is different from Greece proper, but individually most Cypriots could pass in Greece even if as atypical, and mainland Greeks still look closer to Cypriots than to any Europeans north of Marseille.

[Sikeliot]

Here is the result on Dodecad K12b of someone from the Peloponnese. Do you really think this will not show in their appearance??

# Population (source) Distance
1 O_Italian (Dodecad) 8.9
2 Greek (Dodecad) 9.19
3 Bulgarian (Dodecad) 11.23
4 C_Italian (Dodecad) 11.83
5 Bulgarians (Yunusbayev) 12.25
6 Romanians (Behar) 12.61
7 Tuscan (HGDP) 13.8
8 S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) 14.02
9 Sicilian (Dodecad) 14.14
10 Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar) 14.17
11 TSI30 (Metspalu) 14.24
12 Ashkenazi (Dodecad) 14.49
13 N_Italian (Dodecad) 17.1
14 Sephardic_Jews (Behar) 19.59
15 North_Italian (HGDP) 19.7
16 Morocco_Jews (Behar) 21.23
17 Turkish (Dodecad) 23.65
18 Turks (Behar) 25.66
19 Cypriots (Behar) 26.39
20 Hungarians (Behar) 26.54

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 60.9% Cypriots (Behar) + 39.1% Swedish (Dodecad) @ 2.37
2 60.9% Cypriots (Behar) + 39.1% Norwegian (Dodecad) @ 2.48
3 53.6% Cypriots (Behar) + 46.4% German (Dodecad) @ 2.48
4 76% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 24% Mordovians (Yunusbayev) @ 3.23
5 51.7% German (Dodecad) + 48.3% Druze (HGDP) @ 3.47
6 76.6% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 23.4% Russian (Dodecad) @ 3.55
7 57.7% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 42.3% Hungarians (Behar) @ 3.72
8 77% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 23% Russian (HGDP) @ 3.76
9 76% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 24% Mordovians (Yunusbayev) @ 3.79
10 80.1% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 19.9% Lithuanians (Behar) @ 3.87
11 75.5% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 24.5% Mixed_Slav (Dodecad) @ 3.88
12 76.6% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 23.4% Russian_B (Behar) @ 3.89
13 79% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 21% Lithuanian (Dodecad) @ 3.9
14 50.4% Mixed_Germanic (Dodecad) + 49.6% Druze (HGDP) @ 3.93
15 51% Druze (HGDP) + 49% Dutch (Dodecad) @ 3.99
16 54.9% Cypriots (Behar) + 45.1% Mixed_Germanic (Dodecad) @ 4.01
17 66.5% Bulgarian (Dodecad) + 33.5% Morocco_Jews (Behar) @ 4.03
18 76.8% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 23.2% Belorussian (Behar) @ 4.06
19 56.3% Cypriots (Behar) + 43.7% Dutch (Dodecad) @ 4.06
20 74.2% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 25.8% Ukranians (Yunusbayev) @ 4.06

[Sikeliot]

I acknowledge that Cyprus is different from Greece proper, but individually most Cypriots could pass in Greece even if as atypical, and mainland Greeks still look closer to Cypriots than to any Europeans north of Marseille.

Well genetically mainlanders are as close to Germans as to Cypriots....

You have a simple problem with reality and with fact, instead preferring to think of things the way you wish they were. I bet you cannot find any evidence to support a single claim you make.. or anything that is logically consistent with it.

[Dick]

Here is the result on Dodecad K12b of someone from the Peloponnese. Do you really think this will not show in their appearance??

# Population (source) Distance
1 O_Italian (Dodecad) 8.9
2 Greek (Dodecad) 9.19
3 Bulgarian (Dodecad) 11.23
4 C_Italian (Dodecad) 11.83
5 Bulgarians (Yunusbayev) 12.25
6 Romanians (Behar) 12.61
7 Tuscan (HGDP) 13.8
8 S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) 14.02
9 Sicilian (Dodecad) 14.14
10 Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar) 14.17
11 TSI30 (Metspalu) 14.24
12 Ashkenazi (Dodecad) 14.49
13 N_Italian (Dodecad) 17.1
14 Sephardic_Jews (Behar) 19.59
15 North_Italian (HGDP) 19.7
16 Morocco_Jews (Behar) 21.23
17 Turkish (Dodecad) 23.65
18 Turks (Behar) 25.66
19 Cypriots (Behar) 26.39
20 Hungarians (Behar) 26.54

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 60.9% Cypriots (Behar) + 39.1% Swedish (Dodecad) @ 2.37
2 60.9% Cypriots (Behar) + 39.1% Norwegian (Dodecad) @ 2.48
3 53.6% Cypriots (Behar) + 46.4% German (Dodecad) @ 2.48
4 76% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 24% Mordovians (Yunusbayev) @ 3.23
5 51.7% German (Dodecad) + 48.3% Druze (HGDP) @ 3.47
6 76.6% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 23.4% Russian (Dodecad) @ 3.55
7 57.7% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 42.3% Hungarians (Behar) @ 3.72
8 77% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 23% Russian (HGDP) @ 3.76
9 76% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 24% Mordovians (Yunusbayev) @ 3.79
10 80.1% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 19.9% Lithuanians (Behar) @ 3.87
11 75.5% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 24.5% Mixed_Slav (Dodecad) @ 3.88
12 76.6% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 23.4% Russian_B (Behar) @ 3.89
13 79% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 21% Lithuanian (Dodecad) @ 3.9
14 50.4% Mixed_Germanic (Dodecad) + 49.6% Druze (HGDP) @ 3.93
15 51% Druze (HGDP) + 49% Dutch (Dodecad) @ 3.99
16 54.9% Cypriots (Behar) + 45.1% Mixed_Germanic (Dodecad) @ 4.01
17 66.5% Bulgarian (Dodecad) + 33.5% Morocco_Jews (Behar) @ 4.03
18 76.8% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 23.2% Belorussian (Behar) @ 4.06
19 56.3% Cypriots (Behar) + 43.7% Dutch (Dodecad) @ 4.06
20 74.2% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 25.8% Ukranians (Yunusbayev) @ 4.06

Why do you choose those mixed mode ones? why not the top 3?

[Tooting Carmen]

Here is the result on Dodecad K12b of someone from the Peloponnese. Do you really think this will not show in their appearance??

# Population (source) Distance
1 O_Italian (Dodecad) 8.9
2 Greek (Dodecad) 9.19
3 Bulgarian (Dodecad) 11.23
4 C_Italian (Dodecad) 11.83
5 Bulgarians (Yunusbayev) 12.25
6 Romanians (Behar) 12.61
7 Tuscan (HGDP) 13.8
8 S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) 14.02
9 Sicilian (Dodecad) 14.14
10 Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar) 14.17
11 TSI30 (Metspalu) 14.24
12 Ashkenazi (Dodecad) 14.49
13 N_Italian (Dodecad) 17.1
14 Sephardic_Jews (Behar) 19.59
15 North_Italian (HGDP) 19.7
16 Morocco_Jews (Behar) 21.23
17 Turkish (Dodecad) 23.65
18 Turks (Behar) 25.66
19 Cypriots (Behar) 26.39
20 Hungarians (Behar) 26.54

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 60.9% Cypriots (Behar) + 39.1% Swedish (Dodecad) @ 2.37
2 60.9% Cypriots (Behar) + 39.1% Norwegian (Dodecad) @ 2.48
3 53.6% Cypriots (Behar) + 46.4% German (Dodecad) @ 2.48
4 76% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 24% Mordovians (Yunusbayev) @ 3.23
5 51.7% German (Dodecad) + 48.3% Druze (HGDP) @ 3.47
6 76.6% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 23.4% Russian (Dodecad) @ 3.55
7 57.7% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 42.3% Hungarians (Behar) @ 3.72
8 77% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 23% Russian (HGDP) @ 3.76
9 76% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 24% Mordovians (Yunusbayev) @ 3.79
10 80.1% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 19.9% Lithuanians (Behar) @ 3.87
11 75.5% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 24.5% Mixed_Slav (Dodecad) @ 3.88
12 76.6% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 23.4% Russian_B (Behar) @ 3.89
13 79% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 21% Lithuanian (Dodecad) @ 3.9
14 50.4% Mixed_Germanic (Dodecad) + 49.6% Druze (HGDP) @ 3.93
15 51% Druze (HGDP) + 49% Dutch (Dodecad) @ 3.99
16 54.9% Cypriots (Behar) + 45.1% Mixed_Germanic (Dodecad) @ 4.01
17 66.5% Bulgarian (Dodecad) + 33.5% Morocco_Jews (Behar) @ 4.03
18 76.8% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 23.2% Belorussian (Behar) @ 4.06
19 56.3% Cypriots (Behar) + 43.7% Dutch (Dodecad) @ 4.06
20 74.2% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 25.8% Ukranians (Yunusbayev) @ 4.06

I still see a lot of Jews on the Dodecad list, just as would be the case for South Italians.