Are the Dutch and Flemish ethnic Germans?

[Peterski]

The map in the OP is wrong when it comes to distribution of ethnic Poles.

The map of Poles from my signature is correct, and I made it personally:

I mean, they considered someone from Eastern Prussia ethnically closer to a Dutch

Genetics =/= ethnicity, but genetically Prussian Germans were like this:

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/sho...=1#post4280100



I would like to see that Prussian German's DNA.Land "North Slavic" score:

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/sho...lavic-Finnish)

[Hevo]

Interesting that they equated language with ethnicity and split Germany in half

I mean, they considered someone from Eastern Prussia ethnically closer to a Dutch than to someone from Silesia?? Isn't that strange?

Low German was first described by German linguists in the 19th century. They discovered that the dialects in Northern Germany differ from the dialects in the South. Later, they also discovered similarities between between Dutch and Low Saxon dialects in Northern Germany so they classifed Dutch as a Low German dialect, they viewed Low German as the ''ancestor'' of Dutch and Low Saxon dialects.

I don't know why they considered Dutch/Flemish people as Low Germans besides the outdated view.

The Dutch identity start to emerge in the 16th century, probably sometime before the Eighty Years' war. Admittedly, the ''development'' of the Dutch identity is quite complex.

[Peterski]

Not all of East Prussia was Low German (7), there was also a High German (28) area in East Prussia:





In FTDNA Projects I collected 84 East Prussians, of whom 60 with R1a, N1 and I2a.

Interestingly, all four people with I2a in my sample were born in dialectal area 28:



Haplogroup I2a:

kit E2677 Karl L. Nath born in year 1820 in Osterode (Ostróda)
kit B1542 Gottfried Golembiewski, born in 1790 in Riesenburg (Prabuty)
kit E7698 Michael Rimek born in 1723 in Ortelsburg (Szczytno)
kit N4664 Adalbert Rutkowski, born in 1730 in Grutta (Gruta)

Haplogroup R1a:

kit 145992 - Martin Kiehl, born in year 1760 in Stobiec (Stobbendorf)
kit 165792 - Johann M. Sommerfeld, born in 1750 in Tiegenort (Tujsk)
kit N2864 - Michael Flatau, born in 1800 in Alt Christburg (Stary Dzierzgoń)
kit 275076 - Georg Gottlieb Gutt, born in 1729 in Brodnica
kit 137403, Felyx Pruhs, born in year 1826 in Bratjan
kit 329192 Friedrich Mattern, born in Liebstadt (Milakowo)
kit 161829 Johann Pieczkowski, born in 1824 in Rosenau (Różnowo)
kit N1840 Mikel Bujnicki, born in 1844 in Rogonnen (Rogajny)
kit E9666 Jakob Pawellek born in 1853 in Ortelsburg (Szczytno)
kit 175710 Georg Glass born in 1810 in Babanten (Babięty)
kit 221446 Ludwig Ermis, born in 1822 in Gruenwalde (near Ortelsburg)
kit 31553 Samuel Liedtke, born in 1853 in Kaltwangen (Kalwagi)
kit 71994 Franz Pallaschke, born in 1883 in Buddern (Budry)
kit 162556 Otto Ernst Kloth, born in 1702 in Deutsch Wilten (Ermakovo)
kit 153224 Leopold Lau, born in 1867 in Kompehnen (Niwy)
kit 200664 Simon Netke, born in 1686 in Königsberg (Kaliningrad)
kit 85285 Friedrich Lichtenstein born in 1870 in Königsberg (Kaliningrad)
kit E4464 Karl Labinsky born in 1840 in Trempen (Novostreyovo)
kit E10941 Jablonski, born b4 WW2 in Königsberg (Kaliningrad)
kit B14462 Karl A. Rosenbaum born in 1830 in Heiligenbeil (Mamonovo)
kit 316853 August Czeranna, born in 1864 in Gross Schöndamerau (Trelkovo)
kit 2546 Johann Piasetzki, born in 1860 in Sensburg (Mrągowo)
kit E6115 Klaus born in 1935 in Königsberg (Kaliningrad)
kit E2656 Michael Gruenhagen, born in 1750 in Bartenstein (Bartoszyce)
kit 330940 Friedrich Malesha, born in 1800 in Soldahnen (Soldany)
kit N2278 Krystyan Lamka, born in 1769 in Lapienus (Łapinóż)
kit N5198 Peter Wróblewski, born in 1830 in Marienwerder (Kwidzyń)
kit N18451 Frank J. Zalewski, born in 1858 in Gotschalki (Goczałki)
kit 131361 Jan Jablonowski, born b4 WW2 in Prioma (near Soldau/Działdowo)
kit N43077, NN born b4 WW2 in Panemune (Sovetsk)
kit 157553 Tomasz Szypulski, born in 1738 in Szypułki-Zaskórki (near Neidenburg)
kit E4688 Stanislaw Holynski born in 1780 in Kutten (Kuty)
kit 145455 Scheffrahn, born in Rastenburg (Kętrzyn)
kit N7393 Reimer born in 1720 in Hoppenau (now part of Elbląg/Elbing)
kit 415060 Skubinna born in 1720 in Loyen (Łoje)
kit E10339 NN, born b4 WW2 somewhere in East Prussia
kit 426239 Kalinowski born in 1878 in Riesenwalde (Stańkowo)

Haplogroup N1:

kit 142919 Wilhelm E. Spangehl born in 1819 in Ragnit (Neman)
kit N61024 Jurgis Lunczyns born in 1715 in Mosteiten (Slavyanskoye)
kit 217892 Johann Groening born in 1800 in Horsterbusch (Krzewiny)
kit E13080 Johannes Reihs born in 1800 in Bischofstein (Bisztynek)
kit E9638 August Darge born in 1870 in Bartenstein (Bartoszyce)
kit 202401 Jan Łozowski born in 1850 in Lötzen (Giżycko)
kit 179556 Michael Bannuscher born in 1729 in Schoenfeld (near Braunsberg)
kit 193848 Jons Maczullatis born in 1745 in Skaisgirren (Skajzgiry)
kit N42695 Julius Baltrusch born in 1874 in Campinschken (near Tilsit)
kit 284236 Wannagat born in 1880 in Göritten (Pushkino) or Stallupönen (Nesterov)
kit 147092 Johann Bever born in 1800 in Ryabinovoye (Kaliningrad Oblast)
kit 343953 Pranciškus Lukoševičius, born in Wisztyniec (Vištytis)
kit B42972 Johann Kuschnereit born in 1800 in Eszerischken (now in Kaliningrad Oblast)
kit N58382 Dargil, born ca. 1344 in Gut Dargels (Dargiele) near Migehnen (Mingajny)
kit 183188 Andrzej Cholewa, born in 1815 in Bełcząc (near Bialla/Gehlenburg)
kit N23762 Andrzej Romanski, born in 1758 in Łapka (near Olsztyn/Allenstein)
kit 173926 Baltazar Hilinski, born in 1866 in Rakowo in East Prussia
kit E2482 Martin Ossowski, born in 1729 in Marienburg (Malbork)
kit E8045 Dawid Barteit, born in Kolonie Bismarck near Heydekrug (Šilutė)

==============================

I compared Y-DNA frequencies of modern Lithuanians to East Prussians:

N1c - 40.53% (122) / 22.62% (19)
R1a - 42.19% (127) / 45.23% (38)
I2a - 2.33% (7) / 4.76% (4)
R1b - 4.32% (13) / 15.48% (13)
I1 - 4.65% (14) / 7.14% (6)
E1b - 2.66% (8) / 1.19% (1)
J - 1.33% (4) / 1.19% (1)
G - 1.00% (3) / 1.19% (1)
I2b - 0.33% (1) / 0.00% (0)
other - 0.66% (2) / 1.19% (1)

Total sample - 301 / 84

So, compared to Lithuanians, in East Prussia there was:

- 1.8 times less of N1c
- 2.2 times less of E1b
- 1.1 times less of J

- 3.6 times more of R1b
- 2.0 times more of I2a
- 1.5 times more of I1
- 1.1 times more of R1a

=============================
And when it comes to % of M458 among R1a:

Lithuanians (sample 127):

R1a(xM458) - 100 (= 78.74% of R1a)
R1a-M458 - 27 (= 21.26% of R1a)

East Prussia (sample 33 + 5 unknown):

R1a(xM458) - 27 (= 81.82% of R1a)
R1a-M458 - 6 (= 18.18% of R1a)

Unknown R1a - 5 (in total 33+5=38)

[Böri]

What I see this is destruction of Germans in east everywhere because there arent any German until Baltic borders today. East Slavs won race war.

[Peterski]

In FTDNA Projects I also found Y-DNA of pre-WW2 born 48 Upper and 48 Lower Silesians:

Apart from those 96, I found 4 with no exact place of birth so I couldn't add them to the map:



Comparison of frequencies of R1a among pre-war Lower Silesians and Upper Silesians:

Upper Silesia - 48 samples of which 30 R1a = 62,5%
Lower Silesia - 48 samples of which 23 R1a = 47,9%

However:

Grünberg region - 11 samples of which 4 R1a = 36,4%
Rest of Lower Silesia - 37 samples of which 19 R1a = 51,4%

==============================

Detailed breakdown of Y-DNA of pre-WW2 Silesians:

Haplogroup I1:

FTDNA kit - place of birth, SURNAME (subclade):

kit #372952 - Silesia, RAUTENBERG (M253+)
kit #E14316 - Żagań, VON NAUMANN (Z58+)
kit #N11115 - Stary Kisielin/Zielona Góra, LIEHR (Z58+)
kit #468007 - Boronów, BULLA (S2077/S2078+)
kit #91645 - Dąbrówka Dolna, WELNA (Z63+)
kit #119162 - Kobyla Góra, MAGNUSKI (L1237+)
kit #188658 - Pietrzykowice, BIALEK (S2078+)
kit #228663 - Karvina, KOPEL (Z140+)
kit #268090 - Rokliny, FRANKE (M253+)
kit #115240 - Stobrawa, DEUTSCHER (Z2336/L22+)
kit #N37278 - Wrocław, DEMSKE (M253+)
kit #167103 - Sośnicowice/Tarnowskie Góry, BOTUR (Z63+)
kit #155178 - Kłodzko, ROSENBERGER (Z140+)

Haplogroup R1b:

FTDNA kit - place of birth, SURNAME (subclade):

kit #227479 - Cieszyn, FIEDLER (M269+)
kit #E1877 - Lower Silesia, QUADE (M269+)
kit #E2541 - Ludwigsthal, SCHIRM (U106, S10185+)
kit #132073 - Kotulin Mały, KORUS (M269+)
kit #B4978 - Ostrava, SELIGA (U152, DF103+)
kit #422423 - Oława, KARPEL (U152, Z49+)
kit #N89895 - Żagań, SCHULZ (U106+)
kit #N114363 - Nowa Sól, SCHMIDT (P312, DF99+)
kit #E4911, E14624 - Kolsko, LEFEBER (P312, L21+)
kit #N11619 - Okunin, SCHILLING (M269+)
kit #176123 - Gliwice, KONIECZNY (Z2103, BY593+)

Haplogroup J2:

FTDNA kit - place of birth, SURNAME (subclade):

kit #B27771 - Suszec, JURECZKO (Z631+)
kit #278599 - Wrocław, GABEL (M92+)
kit #N27660 - Zabrze, NN (M172+)
kit #N45394 - Silesia, GILL (FGC21360+)
kit #66138 - Wrocław, ZWIEFKA (L283+)

Haplogroup E1b:

FTDNA kit - place of birth, SURNAME (subclade):

kit #E18170 - Sternalice, STEINERT (PF1975+)
kit #83418 - Racibórz, FIEGLER (V13+)
kit #233387 - Krasne Pole (Ostrava), HONHEISER (V13+)
kit #155147 - Lubin, SEIFLEIN (V13+)

Haplogroup G2a:

FTDNA kit - place of birth, SURNAME (subclade):

kit #285720 - Gliwice, BEIDEL (Y8903+)
kit #231079 - Uszyce, KOWALSKI (P15+)
kit #265686 - Lutomia Górna, POHL (L13/L78+)

Haplogroup N1c:

FTDNA kit - place of birth, SURNAME (subclade):

kit #N49541 - Rydułtowy, MEISEL (L1025+)
kit #N107445 - Złotoryja, NOWAK (Y4706+)
kit #E11197 - Górki, BLACH (L1025+)

Haplogroup G2b:

FTDNA kit - place of birth, SURNAME (subclade):

kit #123331 - Bolesławiec, BRODA, (M377+)
kit #72341 - Podkamień, ADER (M377+)

Haplogroup J1:

FTDNA kit - place of birth, SURNAME (subclade):

kit #77418 - Praszka, GUTFRAJND (Z18271+)
kit #N13360 - Pszczyna, WARZECHA (P58+)

Haplogroup I2a:

FTDNA kit - place of birth, SURNAME (subclade):

kit #300972 - Laskówka, SCHINDLER (CTS5966+)

Haplogroup T:

FTDNA kit - place of birth, SURNAME (subclade):

kit #161332 - Zielona Góra, SCHÜTZ (P322+)

Haplogroup Q:

FTDNA kit - place of birth, SURNAME (subclade):

kit #89372 - Mikołów, DE KRUPPA (L275+)

Haplogroup R1a:

FTDNA kit - place of birth, SURNAME (subclade):

kit #464408 - Osina Mała, KUBE (M512+)
kit #40132 - Zielona Góra, WEDERICH (M417+)

Branch R1a-L664:

kit #277963 - Siemianowice Śląskie, KORFANTY (L644+)

Branch R1a-Z280:

kit #156577 - Stronie Śląskie, SZCZEPANEK (M417+, Z280?)

Z92:

kit #192545 - Głubczyce, SALZMANN (Z280>Z92+)

CTS1211:

kit #164946 - Lubliniec, SCHEMBOR (Z280>CTS1211?)
kit #249444 - Błotnica Strzelecka, MAXELON (Z280>CTS1211?)

YP343:

kit #N38418 - Krzyżowa, BULAWA (Z280>CTS1211>YP343*)

YP380:

kit #N116699 - Ochaby, STANIEK (Z280>CTS1211>YP343>YP340>YP371>YP372>YP380*)
kit #295227 - Warszowice, LASSEK (Z280>CTS1211>YP343>YP340>YP371>YP372>YP380?)

P278.2:

kit #E5412 - Opole, KLEEMANN (Z280>CTS1211>YP343>YP340>P278.2+)
kit #N35951 - Ostrawa, NN (Z280>CTS1211>YP343>YP340>P278.2+)
kit #163780 - Niewiesze, KOCUR (Z280>CTS1211>YP343>YP340>P278.2+)

CTS3402>YP237:

kit #465642 - Bładnice Górne, GAZDA (Z280, CTS3402>YP237+)
kit #161130 - Wrocław, PFEILER (Z280, CTS3402>YP237>YP235?)
kit #302244 - Frydek-Mistek, NOWAK (Z280, CTS3402>YP237>YP951, YP1018+)

CTS3402>Y33:

kit #210950 - Legnica, HAMANN (Z280, CTS3402>Y33, YP4335*)
kit #N17626 - Katowice, SOBALLA (Z280, CTS3402>Y33>CTS8816>Y2898>Y2902+)

S18681

kit #E8695 - Wrocław, MASUR (Z280, CTS3402>Y33>CTS8816>S18681)
kit #N156262 - Wrocław, WIANCKO (Z280, CTS3402>Y33>CTS8816>S18681, YP314+)
kit #329518 - Brody (Pförten), KAKOSCHKE (Z280, CTS3402>Y33>CTS8816>S18681, YP314>YP1409+)

Branch R1a-M458:

Clade L260:

kit #188725 - Mysłowice, PATALONG (M458, L260?)
kit #349840 - Katowice, ROSTEK (M458, L260?)
kit #172283 - Wałbrzych, DINTER (M458, L260?)
kit #124617 - Oleśnica, LASSOTA (M458, L260?)
kit #N33335 - Budziska, GRZESIK (M458, L260?)
kit #N18946 - Żywiec, TOMASZEK (M458, L260?)
kit #N13715 - Komprachcice, SAKRY (M458, L260+)
kit #363910 - Międzyrzecze, ROLKA (M458, L260+)
kit #E1842 - Stare Karmonki, FREYER (M458, L260+)
kit #N3865 - Laskowice, PACH (M458, L260+)
kit #114248 - Srebrna Góra, KRUSZKA (M458, L260+)
kit #E4579 - Czerwona Woda, NN (M458, L260+)
kit #173783 - Zielona Góra, VOGT (M458, L260+)

YP1337:

kit #288504 - Rostkowice, STRZODA (M458, L260>YP1337+)

YP254:

kit #N111740 - Kałki, SCHULZE (M458, L260, YP256>YP254?)
kit #53667 - Wilamowice, SCHNEIDER (M458, L260, YP254+)
kit #376660 - Brzęczkowice, CHECHELSKI (M458, L260, YP254>YP414+)
kit #154913 - Niemodlin, HANNAK (M458, L260, YP254>YP414>YP610+)

Y2905:

kit #439329 - Mikołów, SZKOWRON (M458, L260, YP254>Y2905+)
kit #338484 - Świniary, MIRKE (M458, L260, YP254>Y2905+)
kit #260299 - Głubczyce, BERNATEK (M458, L260, YP254>Y2905>YP1364+)
kit #329542 - Wrocław, WARKUS (M458, L260, YP254>Y2905>YP1364+)
kit #N77026 - Panki, KONARSKI (M458, L260, YP254>Y2905>YP1364>YP3927+)

Clade L1029:

kit #178329 - Chorzów, BENTKOWSKI (M458, CTS11962?, L1029?)
kit #102574 - Wałbrzych, SCHOBER (M458, CTS11962?, L1029?)
kit #373829 - Głubczyce, LEX (M458, CTS11962>L1029+)
kit #E11879 - Raszowa, GONDRO (M458, CTS11962>L1029+)
kit #271280 - Milicz, SCHWABE (M458, CTS11962>L1029+)
kit #199575 - Wrocław, Piotr WŁOSTOWIC (M458, CTS11962>L1029>YP593+)
kit #97621 - Wrocław, JUNG (M458, CTS11962>L1029>YP263>Y2921+)

Branch R1a-Z93:

kit #E7096 - Rościsławice, BAUM (Z93, Z94-)
kit #232033 - Krapkowice, SCHARON (Z93, Z2124>Z2123, Y934*)
kit #N103033 - Silesia, CHRISTMANN (Z93, Z2124>Z2122, CTS6+)

==================

See also: https://www.familytreedna.com/groups...out/background

[Proto-Shaman]

its because people from Netherland are historically called DEUTSCH = DUTCH

its said Dutch is a very funny version of German and Anglo-Saxon.

[Peterski]

Germans from Lower Silesia were mostly of Slavic origin (as their Y-DNA shows).

Germans from East Prussia were mostly of Baltic as well as Slavic origin (as above).

Autosomal results from my thread "Prussian German GEDmatch kit" confirm this:

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/sho...=1#post4280100

===================

Frequencies of R1a and N1 haplogroups in pre-war:

Upper Silesia (sample 48) = 62,5% (30) R1a + 4,2% (2) N1

Lower Silesia (sample 48) = 47,9% (23) R1a + 2,1% (1) N1

East Prussia (sample 84) = 45,2% (38) R1a + 22,6% (19) N1

After WW2 those people dispersed mostly to WEST GERMANY - which means that there is a lot of Slavic genes today in West Germany (not just in East Germany, as some people claim).

[Peterski]

What I see this is destruction of Germans in east everywhere because there arent any German until Baltic borders today. East Slavs won race war.

And Slavic genes spread as far west as the French border, thanks to deportation to West Germany. Contrary to what some people think, most of expelled Easternmost Germans settled in West Germany.



Percent of expelled Easternmost Germans among the population in 1950 & 1961:





Source: https://books.google.pl/books?id=ud0...page&q&f=false

So already in 1961 there were 12 million Easternmost Germans living in West Germany. They were 1/5 of entire population. And after 1961 there has also been a lot of immigration from East Germany.

I doubt if you can find many "pure West Germans" (in pre-1939 genetic sense) today.

[Böri]

And Slavic genes spread as far west as the French border, thanks to deportation to West Germany. Contrary to what some people think, most of expelled Easternmost Germans settled in West Germany.

So already in 1961 there were 12 million Easternmost Germans living in West Germany. They were 1/5 of entire population. And after 1961 there has also been a lot of immigration from East Germany.

I doubt if you can find many "pure West Germans" (in pre-1939 genetic sense) today.

East Germans who live once upon a time until Balt nations more Balt influenced no? Not Slavs. Anyway people discuss Netherlands but that detail compared with Germanic extinction in east by Russians

[Peterski]

East Germans who live once upon a time until Balt nations more Balt influenced no? Not Slavs.

No. They were much more Slavic than Baltic. Maybe with the excepion of some part of East Prussian Germans. Which explains why East Prussia had a lot of N1c too, while other East Germans only a lot of R1a.