Burgos: Caput Castelae.

[Ibericus]

Rubbish, Visigoths were conquerors too. The King Euric invaded Hispania, taking advantage of the weakness of the romans in that period, and there was continous rebelions of the Asturs, Basques and Cantabrii to their dominion over our lands (and also from many other parts of Hispania). They were occupiers , and they imposed their rule over us with the military force. They were a ruling caste, as were the moors.

I do not dismiss their legacy, but I will also not idealize it, the same way I do not Idealize he moors: they were both conquerors and invaders caused eho suffering to the hispanii, but who also sparkled periods of great splendour . The things that were achived during Visigothic-rule, and the things that were Achieved during the Muslim-rule,or Roman rule, belong to our history principally, and only secondarily to theirs.

Anyway, this post is about my home town and province. Hope you like the first set of pictures. I wanted to help Caballo Loco at first with his post, but then I felt that Burgos, an enormous province both geographically, historically and in terms of landscapes too, deserves its own thread


Burgos Siempre Cabeza de Castilla!

hmmm..NO. There is an essential difference : The Visigoths were Christians, Arians at first, but Christians nonetheless. To me, the Visigoths had a far greater impact in Iberia, than moors. The Visigoths created a united Iberia that would be the seed for the creation of Spain. They created the Liber Iudiciourum, that would be the predecessor of the Fueros, and even until today some of their laws are still used, and of course the most common surnames in Castille are of Visigothic origin : surnames like Fernández, Alonso, etc. Not mohammed or Khalid.

[Don]

...Burp...

Ok, return to the Ikastola and learn some more black legends about the Evil Castilians.

When ready return to the threads about them and express yourself again.

But take your turn (between the sudacas and the progres, just in front of the Muslims) and express your frustrations in order and in few lines, ok?
The losers are many, as you know, and we can't attend to such a massive number of fans properly if we don't organize them a little.

Salutations.

[perikolez]

Ok, return to the Ikastola and learn some more black legends about the Evil Castilians.

When ready return to the threads about them and express yourself again.

But take your turn (between the sudacas and the progres, just in front of the Muslims) and express your frustrations in order and in few lines, ok?
The losers are many, as you know, and we can't attend to such a massive number of fans properly if we don't organize them a little.

Salutations.

I have only said that Burgos is boring and mediocre,and Cantabria is an invention that shoulnt be a independent comunidad autonoma. I havent said that castilians are evil or bad people.Burgos isnt all Castilla. It is only a castilian town and there are many more castilian towns. On the other hand , I have never studied in a Ikastola.

[Raikaswinþs]

If you think Burgos is boring and mediocre... well. you obviously don't know it very good. I am a Basque too, was born in basque lands to basque parents. I learnt the little euskara that I know from my grandfather, who is an Euskaldun. Half of my friends of my time in Burgos are all basques, and believe me, none of them thought that Burgos was boring and mediocre. Wether you like cinema, theatre, outoor activities, wether you are a foodie, or a wine lover, you have in Burgos an assortment of the best cultura, and gastronomic activities in the whole north of Spain. If what you like is going out and about in a night of vinos and pinchos, Burgos is arguably as good as San Sebastian. If you prefer to drink in a tabern, or dance in a club, Burgos has one of the highest concentration of these in the whole north. Just in "Las Llanas (an area near the Cathedral) there are over 40 taverns, pubs and clubs.

The southern half of te Province corresponds to the end of the meseta central, and hence, as you mention, is largely composed of flat plateaus and paramos (although hardly desertic, since important rivers, agricultural areas and forests of Chopos, cipreses etc cover the land) The small pueblos in this area are absolutely old and beautiful, and most of them have at least one good Meson, where you can eat like a Hidalgo. People here are true Castellanos

The northern half however is sprinkled with sierras, forests and mountains of all kind, with even more ancient pintoresque pueblos, some of them with a great night life, such as Briviesca. Ancient ruins, castles, ice-age lakes, isolated areas with people of celtic stock who have barely moved during millenia, along with important crossroads, between the BAsque and Navarra areas and the Castilian zone, with important cities such as Miranda de Ebro. In the northermost of the prvince, the cantabrian mountains are the home of incredible fauna and flora, such as iberian wolves, bears, eagles, stags.

If you enjoy forest trecking , mountain climbing, nature sports such as rafting, canoos, cave exploring and other outdoor activities there are very few provinces that offer you what Burgos does. Bear in mind also, that Burgos is bigger than the whole Euskadi, and that Cantabria and Rioja used to be aswell parts of auld castile.

The population of the province of burgos is equivalent to that of Iceland,small for a country, but ok for a province. with more than 300 towns, and houndres of architectonic and historical treasures, very few provinces can compare to Burgos in this sense aswell

True, our historical footbal club dissapeared and our current club is in third divission. But I hope you don't only measure provinces in terms of football.

About the list of people that Burgos has provided to the ancient and modern history of Spain, I could spend dozens of lines here. Just research a little, have a go and forget your stereotypes.

[Raikaswinþs]

mini documentary about the city of Burgos (in Spanish)

[youtube]nhp1AH1LpXY[/youtube]

[Osweo]

Rubbish, Visigoths were conquerors too. The King Euric invaded Hispania, taking advantage of the weakness of the romans in that period, and there was continous rebelions of the Asturs, Basques and Cantabrii to their dominion over our lands (and also from many other parts of Hispania). They were occupiers , and they imposed their rule over us with the military force. They were a ruling caste, as were the moors.

I was actually reading today about the socio-economic implications of the Gothic conquest. Caro Baroja in his Pueblos de Espana demonstrates how this brought a change from slavery of the cuartelario (barracks) type (often for absentee landlords who sucked the riches from the land to live it up in the cities), to one in which serfs were treated far more humanely, even as good as included in the household of the Senor.

"[... el esclavo] vivia en un regimen cuartelario con un inspector a la cabeza, que dividia el trabajo en secciones, vigilado estrechemente por cabos y capataces: su vida familiar era casi nula, mientres el servio de los siglos despues se hallado incorporado en absoluto a un regimen familiar, viviendo precisemento en los villares ..., sobre la tierra prestado por un senor."

The Goths knew no such institutionalised system of treating people as mere tools to get all the labour they possibly could out of. You talk of rebellions against the Godos - but there was NO Reconquista against THEM. It wasn't needed. Life under the Goths was better than that under the ailing Empire, in many ways. This cannot be said for the Moors.

I do not dismiss their legacy, but I will also not idealize it,

I will be a little cynical here, and take off my historian's hat, replacing it with that of the politician; perhaps we NEED to idealise something. And it's a damn sight healthier to do this for the Goths than the Moors. Our 'progressive' multikult enemies have already done what they can for the Moros (and more), and our Germanic ancestors are in need of some consideration at last. You owe them that. And I bet your Gothic antepasados outnumber your Moro ones 100 to 1, if you even have any of the latter (quite possible up in Burgos). EDIT: As a Basque as you now claim to be, it's even more likely.

the same way I do not Idealize he moors: they were both conquerors and invaders caused eho suffering to the hispanii, but who also sparkled periods of great splendour .

Yes, I'm sure it was splendid to be Emir Boabdil, and peer down at his naked concubines in the Chamber of the Baths in the Alhambra, imagining which he would fuck that night. Possibly less splendid for the girls themselves, taken from their families at a young age, bought and sold, ending their days and nights slavered over by some Moorish debauchee. I don't think all the mathematics and philosophy in the world makes up for what happened to ONE Spanish girl in such a situation.

The things that were achived during Visigothic-rule, and the things that were Achieved during the Muslim-rule,or Roman rule, belong to our history principally, and only secondarily to theirs.

WHAT was achieved? Plunder and rapine. Oh, and a few manuscripts were found in the collections of these Moorish men of leisure, who'd taken them from the Greeks and Persians, after terrorising and slaughtering the former owners.

Anyway, this post is about my home town and province. ... I felt that Burgos, an enormous province both geographically, historically and in terms of landscapes too, deserves its own thread

Any attempt to do anything for your town while wearing the identity you do (and I see you've toned it down a little since you first joined - the sensation you provoked in me then informing my reaction to you still), is counterproductive.

Perhaps you were and are just trolling overly serious and gullible people like me... In which case, ha ha, but I'd still see it as distasteful in the extreme. From what I know of true Spaniards, you are a people to whom your pride and dignity are important as nothing else. Yet I can think of no time in your history when these feelings have been made to suffer more.

Think what Averrhoes's kin would have done to this;

Lovely, eh?
But more importantly, think what they would have done to these;




Now times that in your head many thousands of times, and come back to me with your pro-Moro arguments.

Disgusting to even think about. And it happened many times. It's beginning again now, too. Islam is qualitatively different to any Roman or Germanic invasion. IS there a more sordid ideology out there? Has there ever been a more pederastic. lecherous, sadistic and parasitic culture out there than that of the Moors and co.?

************************************************** *******

My opinion about Burgos province is negative.Burgos footbal team is in third division. Burgos dont have important sport teams and I dont know many famous people from Burgos. Burgos is a very irrelevant city although having 180000 habitants. Burgos actually isnt Cabeza de Castilla. Madrid is the real Cabeza de Castilla. In my opinion Burgos is actually very mediocre. On the other hand , most of the burgalese landscape is boring , and most of Burgos is a desert with only few populated towns and villages as Burgos, Miranda de Ebro , Medina de Pomar or Villarcayo.

No manic city life, unspoilt nature, no vulgar idiot celebrities or overpaid footballers? Have you just described my long sought after Iberian IDYLL? I'm packing my bags now!

About morish people , they are inmigrant in Spain. 50 years ago, there were 0% of muslim people in Spain with the exception of Franco's guardia mora, and morish troops. They are totally foreigners from Spain.

[perikolez]

If you think Burgos is boring and mediocre... well. you obviously don't know it very good. I am a Basque too, was born in basque lands to basque parents. I learnt the little euskara that I know from my grandfather, who is an Euskaldun. Half of my friends of my time in Burgos are all basques, and believe me, none of them thought that Burgos was boring and mediocre. Wether you like cinema, theatre, outoor activities, wether you are a foodie, or a wine lover, you have in Burgos an assortment of the best cultura, and gastronomic activities in the whole north of Spain. If what you like is going out and about in a night of vinos and pinchos, Burgos is arguably as good as San Sebastian. If you prefer to drink in a tabern, or dance in a club, Burgos has one of the highest concentration of these in the whole north. Just in "Las Llanas (an area near the Cathedral) there are over 40 taverns, pubs and clubs.

The southern half of te Province corresponds to the end of the meseta central, and hence, as you mention, is largely composed of flat plateaus and paramos (although hardly desertic, since important rivers, agricultural areas and forests of Chopos, cipreses etc cover the land) The small pueblos in this area are absolutely old and beautiful, and most of them have at least one good Meson, where you can eat like a Hidalgo. People here are true Castellanos

The northern half however is sprinkled with sierras, forests and mountains of all kind, with even more ancient pintoresque pueblos, some of them with a great night life, such as Briviesca. Ancient ruins, castles, ice-age lakes, isolated areas with people of celtic stock who have barely moved during millenia, along with important crossroads, between the BAsque and Navarra areas and the Castilian zone, with important cities such as Miranda de Ebro. In the northermost of the prvince, the cantabrian mountains are the home of incredible fauna and flora, such as iberian wolves, bears, eagles, stags.

If you enjoy forest trecking , mountain climbing, nature sports such as rafting, canoos, cave exploring and other outdoor activities there are very few provinces that offer you what Burgos does. Bear in mind also, that Burgos is bigger than the whole Euskadi, and that Cantabria and Rioja used to be aswell parts of auld castile.

The population of the province of burgos is equivalent to that of Iceland,small for a country, but ok for a province. with more than 300 towns, and houndres of architectonic and historical treasures, very few provinces can compare to Burgos in this sense aswell

True, our historical footbal club dissapeared and our current club is in third divission. But I hope you don't only measure provinces in terms of football.

About the list of people that Burgos has provided to the ancient and modern history of Spain, I could spend dozens of lines here. Just research a little, have a go and forget your stereotypes.

The importance of Burgos in the actual Spain is inexistent. Salamanca or Leon are more important than Burgos although they are less populated. Burgos is not only mediocre in football. They are mediocre in all sports. Burgos only have basketball team in second division and a cycling Vuelta. They are in the same level as Segovia or Avila that only have 56000 hab. Even Soria is more important.

On the other hand , Burgos cant compare with San Sebastian because San Sebastian metropolitan area is bigger ,have beaches, and have many 10000-20000 hab villages near. Burgos is isolated . The only similar "basque" village would be Vitoria, but even Vitoria has more national impact than Burgos.

About burgalese province, it is a human desert. With the exception of Burgos city , Miranda de Ebro and Aranda de Duero , villages dont have more than 10000 habitants. This is typycal in castilian meseta , that consisted in some populated villages(1000 hab) separeted by 50 or even 100 Km . For a basque like me , this is a bit sad. The spanish desruralization , and emigration to the main cities was too heavy in Castilla.

[Amapola]

I don't see how the Visigoths could be compared to the Moors.
The Visigoths were for a long time refugees of the Roman empire, they even sold their children as slaves to corrupt Roman officers to be able to eat. Later, Alarico would make the Visigoth people rise up in arms. Visigoths would like to go up to the Roman level. In Hispania, they settled in as fief of the Roman empire and they are accepted as such under the Hospitalitas by the senatorial Hispano-Roman aristocracy.

On the other hand the Moors went to Hispania as "invaders" and never accepted the Roman culture but tried to destroy it, although taking advantage of its greatness.

[Raikaswinþs]

@ Osweo, you fail to see that I am not pro-moro. Also, you fail to see that the History of Al-Andalus is something more than harems of young girls and moorish soldiers fighting christian troops. For me, Christianism is as a foreign imposed religion as it was Islam dorung its day. I fully accept and embrace every part of the history of my country and don't try to see everything since a modern revisionist point of view, most of the times too limited by modern political issues and ideologies (who knows, maybe my next Alias will be Roderic, Wamba, or Cid. maybe Seneca, Marcial or Quintilianus)

I do not favour Islam. As a religion, I find it as horrid as Christianism and any other cult that lives and survives by the total submission of its members to the moral authority of other humans that claim to be God's representatives.

I do not favour muslim migration in my country. I am a secular and fight for the fully secularization of my country. I want the church out of all the spheres of influence. Religion must be kept in the church and in each of us' interior.I am absolutely against religious propaganda at any public place, except for certain festivals & representations, which are punctual and part of the history (even if it personally don't like it)

If Islam had remained in Spain and would be today the religion who tries to held power at any cost, I would fight against it with all my forces, the same way I will fight if it ever dares to try again imposing its rule upon us. My opinion of Islam,as an organization is as bad or even worse than that of Christianity as organizations.

I am not an atheist, but I am fiercely anti-religion (understanding religion as the organizations that use religious belief to achieve and mantain dominion and power over a population, I obviously have nothing about individuals believing in Budha, Visnu or Crom, if something, I pity their naivety)


And yet, I do regard Al-Andalus period of Spain as a much valuable period of our history without which much of what made us what we are would be gone. I regard the Visigothic period in the same way. you mentioned that there was no reconquista against them. I truly laugh at it, since Hispania was in constant rebellion against their dominion and presence. At the time the moors invaded the peninsula, the Visigoths were weakened after centuries of sublevations, inssurrection and fierce rivalry among themselves (Roderic was fighting the basques, and some argue the invaders were invited by his Visigothic rivals). I will not forget my Cantabric ancestors and all the other forfathers of the Spanish who fought against the rule of the foreigners. Romans first, Germans then, Moors after. All the blood spilled will be remembered

The Visigoths are gone, the moors are gone, even the romans are gone (and they spent 200 years "pacifying" our Peninsula) What's left is today's Spain. A sum of all its influences, but a very different thing at the same time. Moorish, Germanic and Even roman contribution to our genpool was marginal. We are still largely Iberians and Celts. We are the survivors of our own history. The moor will always be remembered as an Invasor. and so the Goth. and the Roman

[Raikaswinþs]

bla bla bla...

for some reason you are truly hostile to Burgalese people. The worst thing is the arguments you use to say that it is a boring and mediocre province. As some mentioned above, this arguments that you held make the province even more attracting and interesting.

I love Euskadi (I am a Basque after all, and most of my family live there) but I will never say bullshit about other province. I would harldy say that there is any mediocre province in Spain (although there are obviously some provinces much more populated and economically important than others)

Comparing Burgos to Madrid is as stupid as comparing Perth to Glasgow or Winchester to London