Genetics of the Peloponnesean populations and the theory of extinction of the medieval Peloponnesean

[Tacitus]

Do you acknowledge the 4-15% of Peloponnesian DNA *not* matching Sicilians, is their Slavic shift?

I'd like to see a similar study on Sicilians, Cretans, and other Aegean islanders to determine what amount of their ancestry is MENA affinity in excess of Greece.

I never denied higher "Slavic"/NE Euro input in the Peloponnese compared to Sicily, I contested how high you made it seem to appear.

[Sikeliot]

I never denied higher "Slavic"/NE Euro input in the Peloponnese compared to Sicily, I contested how high you made it seem to appear.

Well now we can quantify it -- 4-15%. My guess is people from Epirus, Thessaly, and Macedonia will be significantly more Slavicized. Anyway we already knew people in the southernmost Peloponnese are close to Sicilians and Cretans because Paschou et al. determined this... though I attribute this in part to Sicilian and Cretan input in the Peloponnese.

I just want to know the origin of the Sicilian samples because I know from GEDmatch and 23andme that some Sicilians, especially from Syracuse and Ragusa, do in fact come up very close to Peloponnesian Greeks on MDLP K23, but this is not the case for the deep inland regions or coastal west which are closer to Malta and Ashkenazim, nor NE Sicily which seems close to Dodecanese.

I accessed a GEDmatch ID today from Caltanissetta and based on that result, it is highly doubtful to me they'd plot with Peloponnesians.

Though I guess this can only be answered with island-wide samples and a similar study.

[brennus dux gallorum]

Peloponnese was REPOPULATED by Sicilians, Cretans, Dodecanese, and Anatolian Greeks. So no, they are NOT the medieval population in part but they're not significantly Slavic either. This is why they are similar to Sicilians. But they still do have more North European admixture than them, though less than northern Greece.

A lot of southern Peloponnesian surnames are also ending in -akis.

There were many descents of the pre medieval inhabitants, plus most of the big cities were never depopulated, see Patras.

As for the repopulation, it was mainly from nearby islands, such as argosaronic, cyclades and Ionian islands, neither from Crete (which was occupied by Arabs during these repopulations) nor from Dodecanese (which were also kinda depopulated due to invasions of Saracen pirates). A theory says that most of them were pelloponesian refugees themselves.

As for surnames ending in akis, you can find them in Thessaloniki too.

also, you should know that many parts of both northern and Central Greece, and even more in thessaly suffered much less from Slavic invasions, so there's technically no part of the country with more than 5-10% Slavic admixture.

[Sikeliot]

There were many descents of the pre medieval inhabitants, plus most of the big cities were never depopulated, see Patras.

As for the repopulation, it was mainly from nearby islands, such as argosaronic, cyclades and Ionian islands, neither from Crete (which was occupied by Arabs during these repopulations) nor from Dodecanese (which were also kinda depopulated due to invasions of Saracen pirates). A theory says that most of them were pelloponesian refugees themselves.

As for surnames ending in akis, you can find them in Thessaloniki too.

So I guess the conclusion from this is, Peloponnesians are similar to Italians but with a minor degree of Slavic ancestry that differentiates them. We can at least agree on this moving forward. I'd suspect those with the least Slavic ancestry will be more or less close to Cyclades, Cretans, Sicilians and so on.

[Sikeliot]

so what I have to ask is this: the least Slavic of all -- deep Mani -- was found to have "no significant relationship" to Lebanese Maronites. I suspect this population of Maniots would be similar autosomally to Sicily and the Aegean.

Does this mean Sicilians, too, should have no significant Levantine affinity? Or would it be different?

[brennus dux gallorum]

So I guess the conclusion from this is, Peloponnesians are similar to Italians but with a minor degree of Slavic ancestry that differentiates them. We can at least agree on this moving forward. I'd suspect those with the least Slavic ancestry will be more or less close to Cyclades, Cretans, Sicilians and so on.

Something like that, maybe with other northern admixtures too, as Northwestern influence is slightly higher than northeastern, and northwestern or northwestern mixed invaders and settlers who are recorded were more than Slavs, see Franks, Venetians, or earlier Celts (as early as 3rd BC century) or British and Scandinavian mercenaries in medieval Greece.

Also, Rhodians are probably the only directly untouched by Slavs people in Greece, and I say directly, cause later immigrations obviously carried Slavic admixture there too.

[Sikeliot]

Something like that, maybe with other northern admixtures too, as Northwestern influence is slightly higher than northeastern, and northwestern or northwestern mixed invaders and settlers who are recorded were more than Slavs.

Also, Rhodians are probably the only directly untouched by Slavs people in Greece, and I say directly, cause later immigrations obviously carried Slavic admixture there too.

Rhodians have other influences though, from what is now Turkey. Still, the Rhodian Greek results I've seen are close to Sicily/Calabria too.

I suspect Thessaly, Macedonia, Thrace, and Epirus would be 20%+ Slavic.

[Coolguy1]

This is where I am skeptical of the study then, because your results are quite far from Sicilians, despite the study implying you should be similar to one.

Sikeliot, this study measured the IBD of the Peloponnesian population, not the autosomal results. The study concludes that the ancestry that Pelopponesians and Slavs share is not very significant which leads me to believe that this northern ancestry has to predate the Slavic migrations.

[catgeorge]

Rhodians have other influences though, from what is now Turkey. Still, the Rhodian Greek results I've seen are close to Sicily/Calabria too.

I suspect Thessaly, Macedonia, Thrace, and Epirus would be 20%+ Slavic.

But Hellenic the other way is impossible despite their mediteranan and alpine phenos.. you can pull the other one.

Latvia is probably one of the purest "Slavic" nations.

38 percent of Latvian men belong to Y-DNA haplogroup N1c1. The common European haplogroup R1b was discovered in 12 percent of Latvian men. Rounding out the list of Latvian Y-DNA haplogroups are I1 (6%), I2a (1%), I2b (1%), J2 (0.5%), E1b1b (0.5%), Q (0.5%), and T (0.5%).

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16759178

I am sorry but this type mixtures does not exist in South Europe.

[brennus dux gallorum]

Rhodians have other influences though, from what is now Turkey. Still, the Rhodian Greek results I've seen are close to Sicily/Calabria too.

I suspect Thessaly, Macedonia, Thrace, and Epirus would be 20%+ Slavic.

considering that 20%+ is not even among South Slavs, then that's impossible, at least for thessaly which has very few slavic toponymes and archaeological documents suggest no much slavic activity.

As for Thrace I have not seen any study yet. Most of its inhabitants are Pontic Greeks now, this is an example of a native Thracian