The Catalan Countries

[perikolez]

Andorra is full of noncatalonians spaniards and portugueses. Andorra is probably the catalonian pirenaic territory where fewer people speak catalonian. I suposse that you dont include Aran Valley in Catalonia.

[Comte Arnau]

Andorra is full of noncatalonians spaniards and portugueses. Andorra is probably the catalonian pirenaic territory where fewer people speak catalonian.

Almost 100% of nationals in Andorra speak Catalan, which is the only official language in Andorra. What has happened in Andorra in recent decades is that more than half of the population is non-national, mainly Spaniards and Portuguese, but also French, Brits and other Europeans. It'll all depend on the ability of Andorrans to integrate them.

I suposse that you dont include Aran Valley in Catalonia.

It is in Catalonia, but you're right, it is not ethnically Catalan. Their language, btw, is now the third official language in all of Catalonia, at least in theory.

[Ibericus]

Andorra is far from being Catalan, apart that it has never been part of Catalonia, is just an example of what would happen if Catalonia was a state, the official language is not a guarentee of anything. Most people in Andorra speak spanish. The same can be said for the Basque country.

[antonio]

For me it's a degradated and specially deculturized (by the culture of money) part of Catalonia (or, at least, of the infamous Paisos Catalans), other thing is that they never make part of the counties integrated in Aragon crown and finally in Spain: territories nowadays called (Southern) Catalonia. In fact, I would not hesitate to conquer them (I doubt Vatican or Sarko would move a single finger to help them) to avoid further damage on our public finances, by means of tax hiding...for not to talk about the aggresive driving of many Andorran drivers (including cheaters from Lérida province) on our roads. In fact, I dont know so much buzz about Gibraltar (at least they have the most powerful colonial power of all times supporting them) and so little about Andorra, which does not mean a shit for nobody.

[Comte Arnau]

Andorra is far from being Catalan,

Lol, what is not Catalan in Andorra?

apart that it has never been part of Catalonia,

Oh, yeah, I forgot that Catalonia only exists since 1978. In that case, it's never been part of it, true.

is just an example of what would happen if Catalonia was a state,

Sure. A tiny territory of 80,000 people is totally comparable to one of more than 7 million.

the official language is not a guarentee of anything. Most people in Andorra speak spanish.

Filling a country with immigrants doesn't change the character of the country until the native population has been eradicated. Now, if Andorrans are that stupid to let it happen, that's a different issue.

And I'd say soon Portuguese will be more spoken than Spanish there.

[Ibericus]

Lol, what is not Catalan in Andorra?

Most of it's population. Isn't that enough ?

Oh, yeah, I forgot that Catalonia only exists since 1978. In that case, it's never been part of it, true.

Neither it has been part of the Crown of Aragon, nor the Principality of Catalonia, nothing of that. The only thing in common with today Catalonia was the Marca Hispánica, but then also other territories that you consider now Spanish.

Sure. A tiny territory of 80,000 people is totally comparable to one of more than 7 million.

lol, but wouldn't a population of 80,000 be easier to control than 7 million ?

[Comte Arnau]

Most of it's population. Isn't that enough ?

No. It's a punctual recent phenomenon in more than 1,000 years of history, and they're mostly 1st generation. Stricter policies of integration, that's all Andorra needs.

Neither it has been part of the Crown of Aragon, nor the Principality of Catalonia, nothing of that. The only thing in common with today Catalonia was the Marca Hispánica, but then also other territories that you consider now Spanish.

Political bullshit. Andorra is nothing but a series of valleys which naturally belonged to the County of Urgell. It's only because of the constant struggle with the County of Foix that it was 'neither for you nor for me'. But Andorra is completely North-Western Catalan.

lol, but wouldn't a population of 80,000 be easier to control than 7 million ?

Oh, you can speculate all you want. The comparison is just mere BS.

[Ibericus]

No. It's a punctual recent phenomenon in more than 1,000 years of history, and they're mostly 1st generation. Stricter policies of integration, that's all Andorra needs.

Come on, during most if it's history there were only 4 shepherds and 4 cows, that's all nobody gave a shit, it has been recently that Andorra is considered something more than a mere pyrennean village, and more when catalan was made official. Well, according to statistics the national Andorrans are only 37% of the population, and that considering is a country where is very difficult to obtain nationality.

[perikolez]

I agree with Iberia. When foreigners are the majority like in Andorra, the integration is imposible, and probably in the next 50 years , local andorrans will integrate to foreigners , and they will speak even portuguese( I supose that they know actually speaking castilian), and will forget their own language. I think that it is similar to Aran valley where very few people speak aranese and the majority speak castilian. The oficiality of a language doesnt serve if foreigners are majority.

[Comte Arnau]

Let's see...

Geographically? They're Catalans.
Ethnolinguistically? 99% of the nationals are Catalan. More than 20% of the "foreign" population is Catalan too.
Officially? The only language used for all purposes is Catalan. Domestically and internationally.
Culturally? They're Catalan. Folklore, cuisine...
Legally? Their institutions are based on the Catalan Law.
Religiously? The whole country is part of the Catalan Diocese of Urgell.
Historically? They were in origin part of the County of Urgell, what is the same as saying Western Catalonia, since Old Catalonia was born mainly from the union of Urgell (West Catalonia) with Barcelona (East Catalonia).
Politically? They've always been ruled by the Bishop of the Catalan Diocese of Urgell and the Heirs of the County of Foix, originally Occitan and very related to Catalonia (the flag of Foix was the 4 Catalan bars too).
Socially? Their relationship with this side of the Pyrenees is obvious --not with the northern French part. Most Andorrans go to work/study in Catalonia rather than to any other surrounding territory, and that's for a reason.

So saying they're not Catalan is, well, 'pissing outside the flowerpot', as we say in Catalan. I don't think more comments are needed on this.

and probably in the next 50 years , local andorrans will integrate to foreigners , and they will speak even portuguese( I supose that they know actually speaking castilian), and will forget their own language. I think that it is similar to Aran valley where very few people speak aranese and the majority speak castilian. The oficiality of a language doesnt serve if foreigners are majority.

National Andorrans are still more than Spaniards, according to last year's statistics. Immigration reached its top in the late 80's, and it has gradually decreased since then.

Catalan is spoken by almost 100% of the national Andorrans. It is the usual language for almost 60% of the population and the native language for almost 40%. The belief that Spanish is the most used language in Andorra is simply denied by the statistic studies, probably due to the fact that most Catalan-speaking Andorrans can address the Spanish-speaking ones and Spanish tourists in their language. Besides, a good deal of the 'Spanish' immigrants in Andorra are Catalan speakers from 'Spanish' Catalonia. Still, it's true that Spanish is the second most spoken language in the country and the first among the foreign ones. As I said, what I care for is for the national population, not the foreigners living in it. If the core of the nation keeps its customs, it's the descendants of foreigners who get integrated, not the other way round. This said, I repeat I think some policies should be stricter.