Split: Christian vs. Pagan heroism

[Magister Eckhart]

"Hold your ground! Hold your Ground! Men of Gondor, of Rohan, my brothers! I see in your eyes the same fear that would take the heart of me. A day may come when the courage of men fails, when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship - but it it is not this day! An hour of wolves and shattered shields when the age of men comes crashing down - but is not this day! This day we fight! By all that you hold dear on this good earth, I bid you stand, Men of the West!"

That speech, and the ride Théoden leading the Rohirrin into the right flank of the Uruk-hai army at Battle of Pelennor Fields, are the two most powerful moments in the whole trilogy. It's too bad the only Occidental heroism left in this world is found in a contemporary mythos created by a Roman Catholic Englishman.

[Cato]

"Hold your ground! Hold your Ground! Men of Gondor, of Rohan, my brothers! I see in your eyes the same fear that would take the heart of me. A day may come when the courage of men fails, when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship - but it it is not this day! An hour of wolves and shattered shields when the age of men comes crashing down - but is not this day! This day we fight! By all that you hold dear on this good earth, I bid you stand, Men of the West!"

That speech, and the ride Théoden leading the Rohirrin into the right flank of the Uruk-hai army at Battle of Pelennor Fields, are the two most powerful moments in the whole trilogy. It's too bad the only Occidental heroism left in this world is found in a contemporary mythos created by a Roman Catholic Englishman.

Nitpick time.

Technically, only the Men of Gondor (and Arnor), as the progeny of the Numenoreans (i.e. Dunedain), would be "Men of the West." The Rohirrim would be Middle Men.

P.S.

What's wrong with Catholics?

[Magister Eckhart]

Nitpick time.

Technically, only the Men of Gondor (and Arnor), as the progeny of the Numenoreans (i.e. Dunedain), would be "Men of the West." The Rohirrim would be Middle Men.

P.S.

What's wrong with Catholics?

You have to go and ruin my fun!

I really was referring more to the fact that we are not inspired these days by the heroism of our own pre-Christian mythic past. Tolkien wrote in the midst of the twentieth century; it would be nice to see the sort of epic film and glorification of Occidental values made from real Western tradition rather than a modern mythos written by a man steeped in the foreign influences of Christianity.

[Cato]

You have to go and ruin my fun!

I really was referring more to the fact that we are not inspired these days by the heroism of our own pre-Christian mythic past. Tolkien wrote in the midst of the twentieth century; it would be nice to see the sort of epic film and glorification of Occidental values made from real Western tradition rather than a modern mythos written by a man steeped in the foreign influences of Christianity.

There's plenty of heroism in the tales of Christian chivalry, Le Morte d'Arthur, for example, and in the transitional period from the beliefs of the heathens to Christianity (Beowulf, The Battle of Maldon).

How are Christian beliefs foreign to the west after several centuries of indigenization?

[Psychonaut]

There's plenty of heroism in the tales of Christian chivalry, Le Morte d'Arthur, for example, and in the transitional period from the beliefs of the heathens to Christianity (Beowulf, The Battle of Maldon).

How are Christian beliefs foreign to the west after several centuries of indigenization?

You can group the Arthurian Mythos as transitional too. Mallory's shows the Celtic roots a bit less but the sagas of Chrétien de Troyes, Gottfried von Strassburg, and especially Wolfram von Eschenbach are more on the order of Christian tinged Pagan tales than Pagan tinged Christian ones.

[Magister Eckhart]

There's plenty of heroism in the tales of Christian chivalry, Le Morte d'Arthur, for example, and in the transitional period from the beliefs of the heathens to Christianity (Beowulf, The Battle of Maldon).

How are Christian beliefs foreign to the west after several centuries of indigenization?

Actually if you look at Morte d'Arthur, Beowulf, and the Battle of Maldon, all the heroic aspects of the stories are heathen and Germanic (as I'm sure many heathens here will attest).

Over the centuries, Christianity has been slowly shedding the Germanic clothes it put on when it first entered the Western World. The heroism of the Crusades and of centuries of Germanic discipline and Celtic mysticism that seeped into Western Christianity have been bled out, such that nothing of it remains, really. Christianity today is probably the truest form of Christianity we have ever experienced in the West: cosmopolitan, pacifistic, and suicidal, dangerous to cultural integrity and cultural survival, and laced in the senility of forgiveness of the most heinous crimes for the sake of "peace" and "love".

In short, Christianity has in fact eaten away the core of our Western values and then promptly kicked in the shell. I would not exactly call that "indigenization".

But let's not turn the movie thread into a debate thread. Feel free to message me if you want to continue this.

[Cato]

You can group the Arthurian Mythos as transitional too. Mallory's shows the Celtic roots a bit less but the sagas of Chrétien de Troyes, Gottfried von Strassburg, and especially Wolfram von Eschenbach are more on the order of Christian tinged Pagan tales than Pagan tinged Christian ones.

Not gonna deny that, but there's such a large amount of lore surrounding Arthur and co. that some of it is very definitely the product of the Christian period. Some of the ideas, i.e. sacred kingship, are very definitely pre-Christian in origin.

[Joe McCarthy]

Originally Posted by The Wagnerian
It's too bad the only Occidental heroism left in this world is found in a contemporary mythos created by a Roman Catholic Englishman.

With respect, I beg to differ:



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Todd_Beamer

After United Airlines Flight 93 was hijacked, Beamer and other passengers communicated with people on the ground via in-plane and cell phones, and learned that the World Trade Center had been attacked using hijacked airplanes. Beamer tried to place a credit card call through a phone located on the back of a plane seat but was routed to a customer-service representative instead, who passed him on to GTE supervisor Lisa Jefferson. Beamer reported that one passenger was killed and, later, that a flight attendant had told him the pilot and co-pilot had been forced from the cockpit and may have been wounded. He was also on the phone when the plane made its turn in a southeasterly direction, a move that had him briefly panicking. Later, he told the operator that some of the plane's passengers were planning to "jump on" the hijackers and fly the plane into the ground before the hijackers' plan could be followed through. According to Jefferson, Beamer's last audible words were "Are you guys ready? Let's roll."

There have also been six Congressional Medal of Honor recipients rewarded posthumously for their service in Iraq and Afghanistan. Recently the first living recipient was given the CMH, Sgt. Salvatore Giunta, for his heroism in charging into heavy Taliban fire to save a comrade.

[Murphy]

Over the centuries, Christianity has been slowly shedding the Germanic clothes it put on when it first entered the Western World. The heroism of the Crusades and of centuries of Germanic discipline and Celtic mysticism that seeped into Western Christianity have been bled out, such that nothing of it remains, really.

You realise Western Christendom is called "Latin Christendom" yes? You grossly overestimate the influence Germans and Celts had on Western Christendom. The Germans did not Germanise Christianity, Christianity Latinised Germany.

And to your assertion that Christianity is foreign.. you realise Indo-European religions are also "foreign" to western Europe, right ? Why is it okay for our pre-Indo-European ancestors to adopt a new religion but not our Indo-European ancestors?

[Magister Eckhart]

You realise Western Christendom is called "Latin Christendom" yes? You grossly overestimate the influence Germans and Celts had on Western Christendom. The Germans did not Germanise Christianity, Christianity Latinised Germany.

And to your assertion that Christianity is foreign.. you realise Indo-European religions are also "foreign" to western Europe, right ? Why is it okay for our pre-Indo-European ancestors to adopt a new religion but not our Indo-European ancestors?

What pre-Indo-European ancestors? We have none! The Indo-European peoples established complete dominance over the continent and its peoples, and even if the natives were bred into the Indo-European culture, they were utterly assimilated, as any anthropologist will be happy to tell you.

Furthermore, the Indo-European religions are native to the Indo-European people; they are not like Christianity and Mohammedanism which are by their very nature divorced from a soil-rooted culture; rather, they are like Judaism or Hinduism: a people and a faith bound in one unit.

Christianity has a great role to play in the history of Europe, I would not deny this, but it is a fundamentally foreign religion to the people of Europe who are Indo-European. You underestimate just how much of your faith today owes its existence to Charlemagne; much of Vatican II, in fact, was aimed at the elimination of more "recent" styles introduced to the Church, meaning styles that owed their existence to the Germanic influence on the post-800 church and the Tridentine reforms of 1570.

You underestimate the influence exerted on Christianity through its effort to assimilate itself into Germanic culture - the whole notion of the heroic Christ and the "lord of Hosts" comes directly from Germanic heathenry; "lord of Hosts" is one of the names of Odin.

Germanic Christianity (not German, but Germanic) is the Christianity practised today; even the Tridentine Mass owes its format, notwithstanding the language, to earlier influences from Charlemagne and Alfred the Great, to say nothing of the Germanic missionaries.