New study ’proves’ that we can see the future

[Brynhild]

Question to those of you who believe that the future can be known: are you a determinist? If not, how do you reconcile the knowability of the future with free will?

It doesn't interfere with free will. Seeing something doesn't equate with alteriing another's course. However, there's nothing wrong with altering your own outcome if it doesn't interfere with anyone else. You should know something about this already, given your magical history.

I'm equally sceptical about this. Whilst I myself had some dreams that had 'come true', and experienced Deja Vu's, it doesn't prove anything. Humans can't know the future, it's illogical and impossible. They can anticipate future events, of course. But that is guesswork (that can sometimes be accurate). I don't believe in hocus pocus stuff, sorry.

Fortunately, I'm thicker skinned, as I've lived among sceptics for years. It's like telling somebody you can't do that. I simply won't listen, given that I've had too many experiences of this nature to be persuaded otherwise.

I saw this coming...

what do you mean?

You're kidding me, right Curtis? Think about it!

I think I've already pointed this out.

There are always going to be sceptics who want a simple explanation to this sort of phenomena, but we still don't know the full potential of our minds.

[Breedingvariety]

Question to those of you who believe that the future can be known: are you a determinist?

I don't believe the future can be fully known, but I do believe it is hidden deeply in our subconscious and dreams.

If not, how do you reconcile the knowability of the future with free will?

Determinism is in the phenomenon reality, while free will is in the nuomenon reality.

I'm equally sceptical about this. Whilst I myself had some dreams that had 'come true', and experienced Deja Vu's, it doesn't prove anything. Humans can't know the future, it's illogical and impossible. They can anticipate future events, of course. But that is guesswork (that can sometimes be accurate). I don't believe in hocus pocus stuff, sorry.

If the world is one entity with many changing parts, then it is conceivable parts could get information from far beyond themselves, whether it be in space or time.

[Psychonaut]

It doesn't interfere with free will. Seeing something doesn't equate with alteriing another's course. However, there's nothing wrong with altering your own outcome if it doesn't interfere with anyone else.

It seems, however, that the only way branching futures are possible is if the many worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics is true. I think that's how Pete Carroll explains divination too, though.

You should know something about this already, given your magical history.

You might think so, but divination was one thing I never held much stock in. It's inherently nonrepeatable nature clashes too strongly with my scientific inclinations. But then again, that's a big part of why I'm less of a magician and more of a psychonaut/hieronaut.

Determinism is in the phenomenon reality, while free will is in the nuomenon reality.

That doesn't make much sense, dude. How exactly does a phenomenal world of determinism issuing forth from a noumenal world of novelty jibe with precognition? That's like saying I, as a Ding an sich, have total freedom and am undetermined, but to outside observers it appears as if my life-course is completely determined and my actions can be predicted with certitude. If the Ding an sich is free, how then can its actions be foretold through then phenomenal lens?

Your dichotomy would make more sense if it were switched around with the noumenal self being determined, but the phenomenal self (due to systemic complexity) having the appearance of free will.

[Breedingvariety]

That doesn't make much sense, dude. How exactly does a phenomenal world of determinism issuing forth from a noumenal world of novelty jibe with precognition? That's like saying I, as a Ding an sich, have total freedom and am undetermined, but to outside observers it appears as if my life-course is completely determined and my actions can be predicted with certitude.

Determinism doesn't imply ability to predict. It implies causality, which inevitably leads to necessary consequences, even if we may not be able to falsify causes. The possibility to predict comes from figuring apparent causality between events. So the concept of determinism is rather logical, then practical.

If the Ding an sich is free, how then can its actions be foretold through then phenomenal lens?

Foretelling through the phenomenal lens is apparent, because the phenomenon is appearance itself.

Even if you had Godly powers to predict everything, it would not negate free will, because The Will would want and will to do what is predicted. So apparent determinism in phenomenon would not negate internal free will of nuomenon.

Your dichotomy would make more sense if it were switched around with the noumenal self being determined, but the phenomenal self (due to systemic complexity) having the appearance of free will.

Causality and therefore determinism are not attributes of nuomenon. In phenomenon reality it is possible to falsify and apparently predict most simplest causalities. More complex causalities we can't predict. But our inability to predict or thinking we can't predict is not a sign of free will in phenomenon. It is logically impossible for phenomenon to have attributes of both free will and determinism. After all phenomenon is just appearance- Veil of Maya.

[Heretik]

If prophetic dreams and visions are, in fact, possible / true, well, then I'm screwed.

[Liffrea]

Originally Posted by Brynhild
They would still argue even if there is more evidence to support this.

No they wouldn’t. It is simple you either accept the method of falsibility….or you believe what you wish to believe. ESP (like anything) if you want to treat it in a rational manner has to stand up to scrutiny and pass any test that can be devised to prove it wrong. That’s science, any scientist who knows his job will devise ways to prove that he is wrong.

ESP has failed to do this; hence, there is no reason to accept it as fact.

Originally Posted by Vonnita
because I've never myself had any moments of Deja Vu, premonitions or anything like that.

I’ve had deja-vu quite strong in my life, I’ve even seen ghosts.

I know enough about how the human mind works, how we correlate information from our sense, and how our minds are as much (if not more so) active seekers than passive receivers to believe it is all simply in my head. Humans are pattern seekers, we see patterns even where they don’t exist.

Originally Posted by Breedingvariety
The possibility to predict comes from figuring apparent causality between events. So the concept of determinism is rather logical

Chaos makes it virtually impossible to generate an accurate prediction, throw in complexity and you can’t even be certain the rules will remain the same never mind the result.

To predict the future state of a human being would involve writing down the wave function of every subatomic particle in the human……..good luck with that one.

It is logically impossible for phenomenon to have attributes of both free will and determinism.

True, but, interestingly, the laws of physics offer the possibility of an illusion of free will via chaos theory and emergence. We feel like we are making choices but, in fact, we are making judgements.

Originally Posted by Psychonaut
It seems, however, that the only way branching futures are possible is if the many worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics is true.

The problem is that you can’t write the quantum wave pattern for every subatomic particle in a human body, so how would you manage to go one further and predict the change in a particle that would lead to an alternate set of scenarios? It makes sense mathematically, it is even a valid interpretation of an experiment, but then saying God did it is a valid interpretation of an experiment when you get right down to it, it isn’t proof.

[Foxy]

I don't know about that,but prophetic dreams are an absolute reality.I've had two of them so far.

I agree with him becouse I had various too.
I would be interested to know what Matritensis' profetic dreams concerne.

[Loki]

Deja-vu is medically explainable, caused by unbalanced brain chemistry. It is in effect a partial brain seizure. Or, it could be the "aura" part of an oncoming tonic-clonic seizure.

[Peasant]

My brain must be well messed up then.

[Curtis24]

I have also had prophetic dreams that turned out to be Deja Vu.

This stuff is real.

Unfortunately, its not studied nearly enough...