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Thread: What is the subgroups of Turanid?

  1. #21
    Turk with Pride AndarKhan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kipchak Håkan View Post




    It's the proto-Mongolic culture. But nice try.
    Kipchak/Cuman and Yenisei Kyrgyz peoples were dominant caucasoid, they were same to andronovo genetically and anthropologically. But, Slab Grave were dominant Mongoloid. Also, Proto-Turks and Proto-Mongols didn't come from same origins.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AndarKhan View Post
    Well, Which cultures can we call proto-turkic? What do you think?
    There is considerable dispute over the time and place of origin of the Turkic languages, with candidates for their ancient homeland ranging from the Transcaspian steppe to the Altai region, Trans-Baikal and South-Central-Siberia.[29][30][31][32] The proto-Turkic speakers are thought to have been of Europoid-Mongoloid anthropological type.[33] The emergence of Ancient Turkic is dated back to 4000 BC, however Early Ancient Turkic to 3000–500 BC.[34][35] Later Turkic languages emerged at the end of the early Ancient Turkish period in the 6th century AD, forming the isoglosses r/l (Oghur-Bulgar) and z/ʃ (Common Turkic).[36]

    Attempts to localize the proto-Turkic Urheimat are usually connected with the early archaeological horizon of west and central Siberia and in the region south of it.[39] Further attempts also include the Botai culture and the cultural horizon of the Kurgan cultures (see: Paleolithic Continuity Theory).

    __________________

    [29] Golden 1998: 16

    [30] Yunusbayev et al. 2014. bioRxiv "The Genetic Legacy of the Expansion of Turkic-SpeakingNomads Across Eurasia". (The Genetic Traces of Turkic Nomadic Expansion) doi:10.1101/005850

    [31] Römer, Claudia. Von den Hunnen zu den Türken – dunkle Vorgeschichte, in: Zentralasien. 13. bis 20. Jahrhundert. Geschichte und Gesellschaft, Wien 2006, p. 61

    [32] Róna-Tas, András. "The Reconstruction of Proto-Turkic and the Genetic Question." In: The Turkic Languages, pp. 67–80. 1998.

    [33] Peter B. Golden. An Introduction to the History of the Turkic Peoples: Ethnogenesis and State Formation in Medieval and Early Modern Eurasia and the Middle East. Wiesbaden: Harrassowitz, 1992 (Thrcologica; vol. 9), p.124. ISBN 3-447-03Z74-X - ISSN 0177-4743]

    [34] Róna-Tas 1982

    [35] Golden 1998: 16

    [36] Poppe 1965: 59; RónaTas 1982, 1998: 67

    [39] Róna-Tas, András. "The Reconstruction of Proto-Turkic and the Genetic Question." In: The Turkic Languages, pp. 67–80. 1998.
    ✠ Turanian TA is growing ✠


    Quote Originally Posted by Token View Post
    I'm starting to doubt if Scythians were I*anic speakers. [...] If not **anic, probably an unknown Centum branch. [...]

  3. #23
    Turk with Pride AndarKhan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kipchak Håkan View Post
    There is considerable dispute over the time and place of origin of the Turkic languages, with candidates for their ancient homeland ranging from the Transcaspian steppe to the Altai region, Trans-Baikal and South-Central-Siberia.[29][30][31][32] The proto-Turkic speakers are thought to have been of Europoid-Mongoloid anthropological type.[33] The emergence of Ancient Turkic is dated back to 4000 BC, however Early Ancient Turkic to 3000–500 BC.[34][35] Later Turkic languages emerged at the end of the early Ancient Turkish period in the 6th century AD, forming the isoglosses r/l (Oghur-Bulgar) and z/ʃ (Common Turkic).[36]

    Attempts to localize the proto-Turkic Urheimat are usually connected with the early archaeological horizon of west and central Siberia and in the region south of it.[39] Further attempts also include the Botai culture and the cultural horizon of the Kurgan cultures (see: Paleolithic Continuity Theory).

    __________________

    [29] Golden 1998: 16

    [30] Yunusbayev et al. 2014. bioRxiv "The Genetic Legacy of the Expansion of Turkic-SpeakingNomads Across Eurasia". (The Genetic Traces of Turkic Nomadic Expansion) doi:10.1101/005850

    [31] Römer, Claudia. Von den Hunnen zu den Türken – dunkle Vorgeschichte, in: Zentralasien. 13. bis 20. Jahrhundert. Geschichte und Gesellschaft, Wien 2006, p. 61

    [32] Róna-Tas, András. "The Reconstruction of Proto-Turkic and the Genetic Question." In: The Turkic Languages, pp. 67–80. 1998.

    [33] Peter B. Golden. An Introduction to the History of the Turkic Peoples: Ethnogenesis and State Formation in Medieval and Early Modern Eurasia and the Middle East. Wiesbaden: Harrassowitz, 1992 (Thrcologica; vol. 9), p.124. ISBN 3-447-03Z74-X - ISSN 0177-4743]

    [34] Róna-Tas 1982

    [35] Golden 1998: 16

    [36] Poppe 1965: 59; RónaTas 1982, 1998: 67

    [39] Róna-Tas, András. "The Reconstruction of Proto-Turkic and the Genetic Question." In: The Turkic Languages, pp. 67–80. 1998.
    Thanks for informations! Are there any sources you can especially recommend?

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    Quote Originally Posted by AndarKhan View Post
    Thanks for informations! Are there any sources you can especially recommend?
    Yes, of course: Carl C. Lamberg-Karlovsky, a very objective and judicial emeritus professor of archaeology and ethnology from the department of anthropology at Harvard University.

    According to Carl C. Lamberg-Karlovsky, from the common roots of the millennia-long Andronovo cultures, processes of both convergence and divergence allow for the presence of not only the Indo-Iranian languages but for other language families as well, that is, Altaic and Uralic,[1] both Proto-Turkic and Proto-Mongolian could reflect a culture like the Andronovo.[2] According to K. Jettmar, some sites show a striking similarity to the Tungusic peoples.[3]

    ____________________

    [1] Carl C. Lamberg-Karlovsky, "Archaeology and language: the case of the Bronze Age Indo-Iranians", In "The Indo-Aryan Controversy. Evidence and inference in Indian history Edited by Edwin E Bryant and Laurie L. Patton, 2005, p.170. ISBN 0-700-71462-6, ISBN 0-700-71463-4.

    [2] C.C. Lamberg-Karlovsky, "Archaeology and Language: The Indo-Iranians", Harvard University, Current Anthropology Volume 43, Number 1, February 2002, © by The Wenner-Gren Foundation for Anthropological Research, pp.63-84.

    [3] K. Jettmar, "The Altai before the Turks", Bulletin of the Museum of Far Eastern Antiquities 23 (1951), pp.135-223. In: Gernot Wilhelm, "Akten des IV. Internationalen Kongresses für Hethitologie: Würzburg, 4.-8. Oktober 1999", Issue 45, 2001, p.246.
    ✠ Turanian TA is growing ✠


    Quote Originally Posted by Token View Post
    I'm starting to doubt if Scythians were I*anic speakers. [...] If not **anic, probably an unknown Centum branch. [...]

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    Quote Originally Posted by blogen View Post
    The Sanskrit speaker conquerors in the Indus and the Ganghes valley came from the Andronovo culture for example, they were Andronovo Cromagnoids dominantly, their material culture were Andronovo and Andronoized BMAC origin. I think this the cementeries like this is a clear evidence:

    "Twelve skulls from the graves of Butkara II and four skulls from the settlement of Aligrama have been found. They belong to the Mediterranean type that is represented in Central Asia. B. A. Litvinsky (1972: 186) has underlined “a remarkable resemblance between a series of skulls from Swat and the Saka skulls from the Pamirs” which was first noted by B. Bernhard (1967: 317-385). It suggests a genetic relation between the two populations. Among the 25 skulls from Timargarha this type is represented, as well as a massive Protoeurpid type which was distinctive for the steppe Andronovans, a Veddoid (3 skulls) usual for the indigenous inhabitants of Hindustan, and a Mongoloid type (2 skulls) which might have appeared during Ghaligai period III from Kashmir."
    source: Elena E. Kuz’mina: The Origin of the Indo-Iranians - Leiden, 2007
    Let's begin with your first shitty source. Here is the counterpart:

    "...the Turk migrated from their Central Asian homeland first to nearby China and soon after to India, where they established the civilizations of Mohenjo-daro and Harappa."

    source: Philip L. Kohl, Mara Kozelsky, Nachman Ben-Yehuda: Selective Remembrances: Archaeology in the Construction, Commemoration, and Consecration of National Pasts, University of Chicago Press, 2008, p.173

    These regions are CLEARLY KNOWN as CM TURANID influenced areas by
    ANTHROPOLOGISTS! read some booooks!!!!!

    Also knwon as the "TURANOID" Mahratta "West-brachids" !!!


    Eickstedt and Risley noticed that Turanid brachycephalic elements even reached the Bengal corridor via Balochistan, which Eickstedt traces to a contact-metamorphosis with adjacent Paleo-Mongoloids.:

    "Während aber die turaniden Einschläge auf eine gemeinsame Wurzel zurückgehen, gilt das für die mongoloiden Beeinflussungen nicht. Diese müssen in Begalen auf eine Kontaktmetamorphose durch die benachbarten Palämongoliden zurückgeführt werden [p.161]. ... Turanide, deren Herkunft längst verschollen ist, führten über Belutschistan hinaus brachykephale Elemente nach Bengalen und Maharaschtra, was schon Risley 1) erkannte [p.328]." source: Egon Eickstedt (Freiherr von), Rassenkunde und Rassengeschichte der Menschheit. F. Enke, 1934
    Obey your Ottoman Andronovo Cromagnoid Turkic R1a masters!!
    Last edited by Proto-Shaman; 06-16-2017 at 11:55 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Token View Post
    I'm starting to doubt if Scythians were I*anic speakers. [...] If not **anic, probably an unknown Centum branch. [...]

  6. #26
    Veteran Member Amud's Avatar
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    Nothing on this forum makes me cringe harder than ridiculous Turanid fetishism and usage of the term "Turanid" to refer to normal-looking Europeans with slightly squinty eyes.

    This is what Turanids look like:







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    Quote Originally Posted by AndarKhan View Post
    Actually Xiongnu people were multi-ethnic. Turks, Mongols etc. Also, we know Mongolic and Turkic peoples didn't come from same origins. Altai Language family is discredited. Cultural and linguistic similarities due to strong interactions.
    Maybe yes. The great problem is the Eastern Xiongnu ethnicity. Basically we dont know nothing about this question. This is why the Hunnic-Xiongnu identity is questionable. But the correlation is clear with the Huns and Turkic peoples and the presumably ethnic border from east of the Minusinsk-basin Iranians (the European Scythians were Iranian speakers and they were direct descendants of the Altay Scythians based on the historical records and their total identical culture). So the Turkic homeland were somewhere east from the Minusinsk basin.

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    Anyway, this is the Anthropology subforum, so the ethnic relations in the Iron Age Tuva and Mongolia is irrevelant here. Any other question about the Turanid subtypes?

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    edit

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    Quote Originally Posted by Amud View Post
    Nothing on this forum makes me cringe harder than ridiculous Turanid fetishism and usage of the term "Turanid" to refer to normal-looking Europeans with slightly squinty eyes.

    This is what Turanids look like:
    Only the right guy is Turanid admixture on your pictures.

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