Iron Age and Early Medieval Polish DNA coming soon

[Artek]

these are higher quality versions, and also many samples which weren't published previously on the other website.

These are the old BAM files, I can see the dates of an upload.

[vbnetkhio]

These are the old BAM files, I can see the dates of an upload.

They were uploaded long ago, but nobody has converted them yet.

these are the older bams, which were already analyzed by the community:
https://onedrive.live.com/?authkey=%...E9F083531F3F5D

[GalenStark]

Something new. It goes from a Neolithic up to the Medieval period.

How many samples? Any M458 at any stage in history?

Theres a L1029 coming soon from Iron Age Bohemia. His admixture was Scandinavian like supposedly which makes me think he moved into Czechia from Poland. So, theoretically it should be found in Poland eventually. Assiming Davidski is correct on the La Tene R-L1029 sample.

[Artek]

How many samples? Any M458 at any stage in history?

Theres a L1029 coming soon from Iron Age Bohemia. His admixture was Scandinavian like supposedly which makes me think he moved into Czechia from Poland. So, theoretically it should be found in Poland eventually. Assiming Davidski is correct on the La Tene R-L1029 sample.

Few dozens, I don't know an exact number of samples. M458 appears in medieval samples.

[GalenStark]

Few dozens, I don't know an exact number of samples. M458 appears in medieval samples.

Do we know if its early medieval? Pre-migration?

Given the L1029 in Iron Age Czechia l, it had to have moved in from somewhere. Probably north.

[Artek]

Do we know if its early medieval? Pre-migration?

Given the L1029 in Iron Age Czechia l, it had to have moved in from somewhere. Probably north.

Proper medieval, post-migration like VIII-XV centuries. I don't know if there is for sure any L1029 in pre-slavic Czechia. Davidski is not an Y-DNA specialist, he doesn't even knew his own subclade of R1a when I asked him (though he may have good sources).

[GalenStark]

Proper medieval, post-migration like VIII-XV centuries. I don't know if there is for sure any L1029 in pre-slavic Czechia. Davidski is not an Y-DNA specialist, he doesn't even knew his own subclade of R1a when I asked him (though he may have good sources).

Well that doesn't help much. Pre migration would help.

Davidski was correct in calling out the M458 found in Hallstatt before the paper released. Everyone tried dismissing it as middle ages and turned our wrong when it was confirmed Iron Age. He's been correct in a number of other things as well.

Assuming his statement is correct(which was insider info he gathered, not determined himself), there is at least one R-L1029 in IA Czechia coming in a La Tene paper soon, that was "modern Scandinavian-like" in admixture.

This twisted notion that most R1a was exclusively land locked up to the 6th century until the Slavic migrations sounds like baloney to fit an agenda.

[Artek]

Assuming his statement is correct(which was insider info he gathered, not determined himself), there is at least one R-L1029 in IA Czechia coming in a La Tene paper soon, that was "modern Scandinavian-like" in admixture.

This twisted notion that most R1a was exclusively land locked up to the 6th century until the Slavic migrations sounds like baloney to fit an agenda.

R1a in the area wasn't necessarily restricted either to Slavs nor Balts but could have belonged to various post-corded people part of whom later adopted leading slavic or baltic linguistic and cultural package, whereas other part adopted a different package (early Celtic or Germanic) and/or got extinct. I look forward to this result though I don't think that will be a real game changer, unless we find many more of them in La Tene or related context.

The main questions from me for now are:
will it fit the date of formation of L1029 or TMRCA
was L1029 itself called (with how many reads) or just a phyloequivalent (L1029 makes a block now).

If L1029 was still largely re-introduced by the Slavic people it still makes the biggest bulk of L1029 Slavic, though with a different origins in the middle (a similar case is theorised for so-called I2-"Din"). The nuances will make the whole story interesting though (the knowledge that even in case of the young clades it was not so simple as previously thought).

[GalenStark]

R1a in the area wasn't necessarily restricted either to Slavs nor Balts but could have belonged to various post-corded people part of whom later adopted leading slavic or baltic linguistic and cultural package, whereas other part adopted a different package (early Celtic or Germanic) and/or got extinct. I look forward to this result though I don't think that will be a real game changer, unless we find many more of them in La Tene or related context.

The main questions from me for now are:
will it fit the date of formation of L1029 or TMRCA
was L1029 itself called (with how many reads) or just a phyloequivalent (L1029 makes a block now).

If L1029 was still largely re-introduced by the Slavic people it still makes the biggest bulk of L1029 Slavic, though with a different origins in the middle (a similar case is theorised for so-called I2-"Din"). The nuances will make the whole story interesting though (the knowledge that even in case of the young clades it was not so simple as previously thought).

Well, I don't think it's Celtic. But considering M458 was in Hallstatt I could be wrong. If he has modern Scandinavian like ancestry, I can only think of Przeworzk culture spilling into La Tene. That depends on what the burial and finds show. If the paper goes that far.

I never suggested it was some dominant Celtic line. Personally, if it is La Tene related, I believe that's only Eastern LA Tenr and probably has a dominant Przeworzk origin in the Iron Age. With the collapse of these cultures, many of their elements were absorbed and became part of the Proto-Slavs.

I think R-L1029 and I-Y3120 have a similar neighboring origin and story. They were definitely not originally Balto-Slavic. Z280 has the greatest diversity within Balto-Slavic populations. With the exception of L1029 and some L260, there's really no other clades Slavs belong outside of Poles so far that show the greatest diversity within M458. Regardless of what groups most L1029 expanded with in the early medieval.

It was probably Przeworzk/East La Tene spill over, with the remnants taking part in Proto-Slavic ethnogenesis.

The important thing will be if it is almost fully formed L1029, or if its partial and closer to formation like you say. Supposedly this is La Tene era though. So the sample would have lived between 500-50BCE. So, there is a chance it's related. L1029 and M458 is generally very common right where this Iron Age sample with the same line is found.

Also, if its at the same level as modern L1029, I think branches will make a big difference. The strong correlation with Slavs is within YP417 primarily, YP263 secondarily, and a number of other lines. But that will depend as samples grow.

[Lucas]

Finally in G25

Kowalewko (KKO) samples. Don't know still which original number it is. But what we see is predominantly Germanic.

From Eurogenes blog comment

Thanks. Migration:1 is POH44.
The rest has abysmal quality as they certainly don't have any Tibetan or MAR_EN admixture. And they behave very inconsistently across various dimensions in G25 and in the other PCA. In the classical WE PCA they look completely different than in G25.

These are BTW "deep sequencing" BAMs from Kowalewko.

Not so deep after all.

Migration:2,0.136588,0.133034,0.078441,0.067507,0.056626,0.025658,0.020916,0.012692,0.016566,0.002369,-0.017376,0.007343,-0.002379,-0.005918,0.00665,0.011535,-0.010691,0.024198,-0.003268,0.015758,0.010357,0.000618,0.002465,0.006266,-0.003353
Migration:4,0.137726,0.129988,0.070144,0.081719,0.045547,0.015339,0.003055,0.014076,0.005318,-0.017312,-0.015914,0.005095,-0.00892,0.001927,0.012486,0.009944,-0.015776,0.01761,-0.000628,0.007629,0.011979,0.004081,0.002465,0.024341,0.007903
Migration:5,0.114961,0.131003,0.065619,0.04845,0.047701,0.01506,0.00282,0.018692,0.006136,-0.020228,-0.010718,-0.013638,-0.000595,-0.009496,0.018458,0.010342,0.014342,0.006081,-0.013324,0.004877,0.016596,-0.013107,0.001232,0.00482,0.004191
Migration:6,0.119514,0.108662,0.05242,0.042636,0.036007,0.001394,0.008225,0.000231,0.001636,-0.015126,-0.008119,-0.008542,-0.001041,-0.008808,0.009636,0.004641,0.025164,-0.001014,-0.013952,-0.00075,-0.005989,0.000247,-0.002711,0.012652,0.006826
Migration:7,0.127482,0.125926,0.078441,0.053295,0.049548,0.023706,0.013631,0.006461,0.01084,-0.00893,-0.007145,0.004796,-0.011001,0.006606,0.03203,0.001326,-0.001304,0.014949,0.014204,0.008629,0.021462,-0.018301,0.000493,0.000241,-0.002275
Migration:8,0.144555,0.137096,0.06939,0.054587,0.018157,0.023985,0.011751,0.004154,0.002045,-0.008383,-0.014615,-0.013038,0.003419,-0.007156,0.024022,0.005569,-0.008605,-0.005954,-0.002011,0.012006,0.011854,-0.008779,-0.003944,0.024943,0.003592
Migration:9,0.140002,0.120848,0.071653,0.06783,0.048624,0.023148,-0.000235,0.001846,0.015544,-0.02442,-0.003897,0.01109,0.005054,-0.007569,0.035966,0.022275,0.003651,-0.010769,-0.000377,0.016383,0.007986,-0.001978,-0.004807,0.016749,-0.007784
Migration:10,0.134311,0.097491,0.074293,0.059755,0.046778,0.021753,0.015511,0.006923,0.008385,-0.021868,-0.010068,-0.006145,-0.014569,0.00234,0.02823,0.001458,-0.007171,0.007855,-0.001634,0.013131,0.026578,0.01014,0.005669,0.015303,0.010179
Migration:11,0.108132,0.137096,0.070899,0.055556,0.052933,0.020638,0.003055,0.010615,0.016975,-0.019499,0.002923,0.007943,-0.00446,-0.004404,-0.004072,0.019888,0.02021,-0.002027,-0.015461,0.01138,-0.000873,-0.007296,-0.001479,0.035547,0.011735
Migration:12,0.111547,0.12491,0.070522,0.062016,0.042469,0.013108,0.007755,0.019384,-0.008795,-0.000364,0.007795,0.012289,-0.01115,-0.001927,0.010722,0.001193,-0.011083,0.013809,0.019357,-0.002751,0.013351,0.008903,-0.00456,0.008555,-0.022393

Distance to: Migration:12
0.04835482 Swedish
0.04873335 Dutch
0.04934223 Danish
0.05041865 Icelandic
0.05177296 Orcadian

Distance to: Migration:11
0.06230456 Danish
0.06254790 Slovakian
0.06364311 Swedish
0.06398654 Norwegian
0.06414696 Dutch

Distance to: Migration:10
0.04964445 Swedish
0.05425184 Norwegian
0.05575861 Icelandic
0.05649174 Danish
0.05749380 Finnish

Distance to: Migration:9
0.04865652 Swedish
0.05014288 Norwegian
0.05075888 Icelandic
0.05212853 Danish
0.05691346 Shetlandic

Distance to: Migration:8
0.04140696 Icelandic
0.04235455 Swedish
0.04306556 Danish
0.04395369 Norwegian
0.04564770 Irish

Distance to: Migration:7
0.04247837 Swedish
0.04537284 Danish
0.04678140 Icelandic
0.04951460 Orcadian
0.05007151 Dutch

Distance to: Migration:6
0.05075880 Hungarian
0.05299459 Afrikaner
0.05315469 Austrian
0.05365412 Slovakian
0.05398886 Moldovan_o

Distance to: Migration:5
0.04867107 Swedish
0.04875025 Danish
0.05093511 Dutch
0.05219045 German
0.05239872 Czech

Distance to: Migration:4
0.04176711 Swedish
0.04422080 Icelandic
0.04543780 Danish
0.04700009 Norwegian
0.05133585 Shetlandic

Distance to: Migration:2
0.04378439 Swedish
0.04819853 Icelandic
0.04861532 Danish
0.05036351 Norwegian
0.05310254 Dutch


Peterski checked them in K36

Distance to: KKO11
1.79149965 DK_Jutland
1.88589687 NO_Nordland
1.92622195 DK_Langeland
1.93316399 DE_Freistaat-Oldenburg
(...)

Distance to: KKO10
1.29327994 DE_Mecklenburg-Schwerin
1.35041919 DE_Berlin
1.37050903 NO_Vestlandet
1.38779862 SE_South-Sweden
1.39439413 DK_Northern-Jutland

Distance to: KKO9
1.16821616 FIN_Aland
1.28442438 NO_Troms
1.34214381 SE_Norrbotten
1.36677577 SE_Sweden-Medelpad
1.39588467 NO_Finnmark
(...)

Distance to: KKO8
1.19815149 DK_Jutland
1.23509514 NO_Agder
1.30686495 DE_Niedersachsen
1.34963180 NO_Midt-Norge
1.39407389 IS_Iceland
(...)

Distance to: KKO7
1.31634760 SE_Sweden-Medelpad
1.38418315 DE_Freistaat-Oldenburg
1.45736852 NO_Troms
1.47656798 SE_Sweden
1.47789445 SE_Svealand
(...)

Distance to: KKO6
1.14716607 NO_Vestlandet
1.15971634 DK_Funen
1.17866662 SE_Vastra-Gotaland
1.18575883 SE_Svealand
1.20217428 NO_Midt-Norge
(...)

Distance to: KKO5
2.49043430 CZ_Sudetenland
2.50161368 HU_Transdanubia
2.52351679 AT_Austria
2.53645836 DE_Rheinland-Pfalz
2.54699804 HU_South-Great-Plain
(...)

Distance to: KKO4
1.63661052 GB_England
1.65704918 GB_Scotland-Hebrides
1.66533720 IRL_Galway
1.66809142 GB_Wales-Powys
1.67509701 GB_Orkney-Islands

Distance to: KKO3
1.03315584 SE_Sweden-Gotland
1.13113041 SE_Sweden-Medelpad
1.14606457 SE_Sweden-Oland
1.16702785 NO_Troms
1.27934514 SE_Norrbotten

Distance to: KKO2 (very poor quality)
2.53631544 FR_Burgundy-Franche-Comte
2.58094653 FR_Grand-Est
2.61340372 CZ_Sudetenland

Distance to: KKO1
1.02895481 DK_Lolland
1.07211147 SE_South-Sweden
1.07791465 NO_Midt-Norge
1.07899259 NO_Norway
1.10974006 NO_Vestlandet