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Thread: Which Cultures Can We Call Proto-Turkic?

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    Default Which Cultures Can We Call Proto-Turkic?

    This is a very controversial issue which i wonder it.

    Many Turkish historicians(Prof. Dr. İbrahim Kafesoğlu, Prof. Dr. Ahmet Taşağıl etc.) say Andronovo people were Proto-Turkic. Also Andronovo people were very similiar to Turkic peoples genetically and anthropologically.


    A Polovec(Cuman/Kipchak) from Kvashnikovo. XII - XIII centuries.
    Reconstruction of G.V. Lebedinskaya, was established in 1989.




    Andronovo men, 2100–1400 BC, Kazakhstan


    Andronovo child, 9-11 years old, 2100–1400 BC, Kazakhstan


    Besides, Sometimes those cultures called Proto-Turkic:
    -Yamna
    -Afanasevo
    -Karasuk
    -Botai
    -Tagar
    -Tashtyk
    -Kelteminar



    So, What do you think? Which cultures can we call Proto-Turkic?

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    Turk with Pride AndarKhan's Avatar
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    Up!

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    This forum is not interested in such topics, because it is simply seen as non-relevant. The reason is very simple, too, Proto-Turks are considered Proto-Indo-European. But even this is denied by Indo-European dogmatists.
    _________________

    "Many recent studies have shown that the foundation of scientific IE research in the 19th-century was deeply influenced by the contemporary Arian, Pangermanic and colonialist ideology, as first expounded in Count Joseph-Arthur De Gobineau's, Essai sur l'inégalité des races humaines (1853-1855) and Houston Stewart Chamberlain's, Die Grundlagen des XIX Jahrhunderts (1899), with their emphasis on Indo-Europeans racial superiority and their inclination to war and conquest (e.g. Poliakov 1974, Römer 1985, Trigger 1989, Renfrew 1987 etc.).
    Here is, for example, how Adolphe Pictet, the founder of the so called Linguistic Paleontology, in his book Les origines des Indo-européennes ou les Aryas primitif. Essai de paléontologie linguistique, Paris, 1859-63, described the "Arian race": "a race destined by the Providence to dominate the whole world… Privileged among all other races for the beauty of its blood, and for the gifts of its intelligence, … this fertile race has worked to create for itself, as a means for its development, a language which is admirable for its richness, its power, its harmony and perfection of forms".

    In short, the first IE specialists – imbued with European colonialism of the 19th century - chose to see the Proto-Indo-Europeans as a superior race of warriors and colonizers, who would have conquered the allegedly "pre-IE" Neolithic Europe in the Copper Age, and brought their 'superior' civilization to it. Moreover, since it was necessary for the Indo-European warriors to have weapons and horses, also the choice of the Copper Age was obligatory, because this was the context of Battle Axes, metallurgy and horse riding. At the same time, while the concept of the Arian super-race gave shape to the myth of the Battle-Axe horse-riding invaders, another myth, within the Arian larger myth, emerged: Pangermanism. Within the Arian superior race, the German father-founders of IE studies saw the Germanic people as the supermen, the purest and the closest to the original blessed race, and chose the Germanic area as the Urheimat of the Proto-Indo-Europeans.

    After WW2, with the end of Nazi ideology, a new variant of the traditional scenario, which soon became the new canonic IE theory, was introduced by Marija Gimbutas, an ardent Baltic nationalist: the PIE Battle-Axe super-warriors were best represented by Baltic élites, instead of Germanic ones (Gimbutas 1970, 1973, 1977, 1979, 1980). Interestingly, also the central idea of the NDT, namely that the inventors of farming were the Indo-Europeans, rather than the 'real' Middle-Eastern, Sumerian and/or Semitic, people, is yet another vein of this often unwitting ethnocentrism that runs through the history of research on IE origins." (http://www.continuitas.org/intro.html)
    Last edited by Proto-Shaman; 06-20-2017 at 11:47 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Token View Post
    I'm starting to doubt if Scythians were I*anic speakers. [...] If not **anic, probably an unknown Centum branch. [...]

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    Afanesovo is proto-Turks most likely.

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    Andronovo, Afanasievo or any other bronze age cultures pre-date the formation of the Proto-Torks. PT's are an Iron Age product of Steppe IE males and Siberian/East Asian females as can be seen by the high frequency of West Eurasian Ydna in modern torks such as J2, R1 and G. The offspring of the hybrid culture picked up the turkish mother tongue as the INdo-European husbands were usually herding or fighting. When the first interaction of IE and these East Asian Altaics occurred , it resulted in the ydna N of the East Eurasians scaping the wrath of the IE males to far eastern Siberia, where they took local Siberian forager/fisher wives and were born the Eastern Turks such as the Yakuts.
    Last edited by zarzian; 06-20-2017 at 01:13 PM. Reason: I put yDNA Q instead of N

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    Quote Originally Posted by Siyendi View Post
    Afanesovo is proto-Turks most likely.
    haplogroups are matching 100%: R1a Z93 Z2123, Q-M346 L53, R1b Z2103+

    Turkic identity confirmed.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Token View Post
    I'm starting to doubt if Scythians were I*anic speakers. [...] If not **anic, probably an unknown Centum branch. [...]

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kipchak Hĺkan View Post
    haplogroups are matching 100%: R1a Z93 Z2123, Q-M346 L53, R1b Z2103+

    Turkic identity confirmed.
    hee hee herkes türk vay anasini

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kipchak Hĺkan View Post
    haplogroups are matching 100%: R1a Z93 Z2123, Q-M346 L53, R1b Z2103+

    Turkic identity confirmed.
    Excuse me? Non of those Haplogroups was found in Afanasevo, infact the only confirmed yDNA from them is R1b M269, a west Eurasian clade.

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    Quote Originally Posted by All-In View Post
    hee hee herkes türk vay anasini
    Please English with respect!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kipchak Hĺkan View Post
    This forum is not interested in such topics, because it is simply seen as non-relevant. The reason is very simple, too, Proto-Turks are considered Proto-Indo-European. But even this is denied by Indo-European dogmatists.
    _________________

    "Many recent studies have shown that the foundation of scientific IE research in the 19th-century was deeply influenced by the contemporary Arian, Pangermanic and colonialist ideology, as first expounded in Count Joseph-Arthur De Gobineau's, Essai sur l'inégalité des races humaines (1853-1855) and Houston Stewart Chamberlain's, Die Grundlagen des XIX Jahrhunderts (1899), with their emphasis on Indo-Europeans racial superiority and their inclination to war and conquest (e.g. Poliakov 1974, Römer 1985, Trigger 1989, Renfrew 1987 etc.).
    Here is, for example, how Adolphe Pictet, the founder of the so called Linguistic Paleontology, in his book Les origines des Indo-européennes ou les Aryas primitif. Essai de paléontologie linguistique, Paris, 1859-63, described the "Arian race": "a race destined by the Providence to dominate the whole world… Privileged among all other races for the beauty of its blood, and for the gifts of its intelligence, … this fertile race has worked to create for itself, as a means for its development, a language which is admirable for its richness, its power, its harmony and perfection of forms".

    In short, the first IE specialists – imbued with European colonialism of the 19th century - chose to see the Proto-Indo-Europeans as a superior race of warriors and colonizers, who would have conquered the allegedly "pre-IE" Neolithic Europe in the Copper Age, and brought their 'superior' civilization to it. Moreover, since it was necessary for the Indo-European warriors to have weapons and horses, also the choice of the Copper Age was obligatory, because this was the context of Battle Axes, metallurgy and horse riding. At the same time, while the concept of the Arian super-race gave shape to the myth of the Battle-Axe horse-riding invaders, another myth, within the Arian larger myth, emerged: Pangermanism. Within the Arian superior race, the German father-founders of IE studies saw the Germanic people as the supermen, the purest and the closest to the original blessed race, and chose the Germanic area as the Urheimat of the Proto-Indo-Europeans.

    After WW2, with the end of Nazi ideology, a new variant of the traditional scenario, which soon became the new canonic IE theory, was introduced by Marija Gimbutas, an ardent Baltic nationalist: the PIE Battle-Axe super-warriors were best represented by Baltic élites, instead of Germanic ones (Gimbutas 1970, 1973, 1977, 1979, 1980). Interestingly, also the central idea of the NDT, namely that the inventors of farming were the Indo-Europeans, rather than the 'real' Middle-Eastern, Sumerian and/or Semitic, people, is yet another vein of this often unwitting ethnocentrism that runs through the history of research on IE origins." (http://www.continuitas.org/intro.html)
    So, What do you think? Which cultures can we call Proto-Turkic?

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