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Thread: Which Cultures Can We Call Proto-Turkic?

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    Turk with Pride AndarKhan's Avatar
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    Default Which Cultures Can We Call Proto-Turkic?

    This is a very controversial issue which i wonder it.



    Many Turkish historicians(Prof. Dr. İbrahim Kafesoğlu, Prof. Dr. Ahmet Taşağıl etc.) say Andronovo people were Proto-Turkic. Also Andronovo people were very similiar to Turkic peoples genetically and anthropologically.


    A Polovec(Cuman/Kipchak) from Kvashnikovo. XII - XIII centuries.
    Reconstruction of G.V. Lebedinskaya, was established in 1989.


    Andronovo men, 21001400 BC, Kazakhstan


    Andronovo child, 9-11 years old, 21001400 BC, Kazakhstan


    Besides, Sometimes those cultures called Proto-Turkic:
    -Yamna
    -Afanasevo
    -Karasuk
    -Botai
    -Tagar
    -Tashtyk
    -Kelteminar



    So, What do you think? Which cultures can we call Proto-Turkic?

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    Turk with Pride AndarKhan's Avatar
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    Up!

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    Afanesovo is proto-Turks most likely.

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    Veteran Member zarzian's Avatar
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    Andronovo, Afanasievo or any other bronze age cultures pre-date the formation of the Proto-Torks. PT's are an Iron Age product of Steppe IE males and Siberian/East Asian females as can be seen by the high frequency of West Eurasian Ydna in modern torks such as J2, R1 and G. The offspring of the hybrid culture picked up the turkish mother tongue as the INdo-European husbands were usually herding or fighting. When the first interaction of IE and these East Asian Altaics occurred , it resulted in the ydna N of the East Eurasians scaping the wrath of the IE males to far eastern Siberia, where they took local Siberian forager/fisher wives and were born the Eastern Turks such as the Yakuts.
    Last edited by zarzian; 06-20-2017 at 01:13 PM. Reason: I put yDNA Q instead of N

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    Tel Aviv R1a underground lab facility Proto-Shaman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Siyendi View Post
    Afanesovo is proto-Turks most likely.
    haplogroups are matching 100%: R1a Z93 Z2123, Q-M346 L53, R1b Z2103+

    Turkic identity confirmed.

    __________________________________________________ ______

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kipchak Hkan View Post
    haplogroups are matching 100%: R1a Z93 Z2123, Q-M346 L53, R1b Z2103+

    Turkic identity confirmed.
    hee hee herkes trk vay anasini

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    Veteran Member zarzian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kipchak Hkan View Post
    haplogroups are matching 100%: R1a Z93 Z2123, Q-M346 L53, R1b Z2103+

    Turkic identity confirmed.
    Excuse me? Non of those Haplogroups was found in Afanasevo, infact the only confirmed yDNA from them is R1b M269, a west Eurasian clade.

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    Turk with Pride AndarKhan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by All-In View Post
    hee hee herkes trk vay anasini
    Please English with respect!

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    Turk with Pride AndarKhan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kipchak Hkan View Post
    haplogroups are matching 100%: R1a Z93 Z2123, Q-M346 L53, R1b Z2103+

    Turkic identity confirmed.
    Also, Scythian genetics are similiar too.
    _________________

    MtDna and y DNA studies
    Numerous ancient mitochondrial DNA samples have now been recovered from Bronze and Iron Age communities in the Eurasian steppe and Siberian forest zone, the putative 'ancestors' of the historical Scythians. Compared to Y-DNA, mtDNA is easier to extract and amplify from ancient specimens due to numerous copies of mtDNA per cell.

    The earliest studies could only analyze segments of mtDNA, thus providing only broad correlations of affinity to modern 'West Eurasian' or 'East Eurasian' populations. For example, a 2002 study, the mitochondrial DNA of Saka period male and female skeletal remains from a double inhumation kurgan at the Beral site in Kazakhstan was analysed. The two individuals were found to be not closely related. The HV1 mitochondrial sequence of the male was similar to the Anderson sequence which is most frequent in European populations. On the other hand, the HV1 sequence of the female suggested a greater likelihood of Asian origins.[47]

    More recent studies have been able to type for specific mtDNA lineages. For example, a 2004 study studied the HV1 sequence obtained from a male "Scytho-Siberian" at the Kizil site in the Altai Republic. It belonged to the N1a maternal lineage, a geographically "west Eurasian lineage."[48] Another study by the same team, again from two Scytho-Siberian skeletons found in the Altai Republic, were phenotypically males "of mixed Euro-Mongoloid origin". One of the individuals was found to carry the F2a maternal lineage, and the other the D lineage, both of which are characteristic of "East Eurasian" populations.[49]

    These early studies have been elaborated by an increasing number of studies by Russian scholars. Conclusions which might be drawn thus far, from an mtDNA perspective, are (i) an early, Bronze Age mixture of both west and east Eurasian lineages, with western lineages being found far to the East, but not vice versa; (ii) an apparent reversal by Iron Age times, with increasing presence of East Eurasian lineages in the western steppe; (iii) the possible role of migrations from the sedentary south: the Balkano-Danubian and Iranian regions toward the steppe.[50][51][52]

    Ancient Y-DNA data was finally provided by Keyser et al in 2009. They studied the haplotypes and haplogroups of 26 ancient human specimens from the Krasnoyarsk area in Siberia dated from between the middle of the 2nd millennium BC and the 4th century AD (Scythian and Sarmatian timeframe). Nearly all subjects belong to haplogroup R-M17. The authors suggest that their data shows that between Bronze and Iron Ages the constellation of populations known variously as Scythians, Andronovians, etc. were blue- (or green-) eyed, fair-skinned and light-haired people who might have played a role in the early development of the Tarim Basin civilization. Moreover, this study found that they were genetically more closely related to modern populations of eastern Europe than those of central and southern Asia.[53] The ubiquity and utter dominance of R1a Y-DNA lineage contrasts markedly with the diversity seen in the mtDNA profiles.

    However, this comparison was made on the basis of STRs. Since the 2009 study by Keyser et al, population and geographic specific SNPs have been discovered which can accurately distinguish between "European" R1a (M458, Z280) and "South Asian" R1a (Z93)[54] Re-analyzing ancient Scytho-Siberian samples for these more specific subclades will further elucidate if the Eurasian steppe populations have an ultimate Eastern European or EurAsian origin, or perhaps, both. This, in turn, might also depend on which population is studied, i.e. Herodotus' European "classical' Scythians, the Central Asian Sakae or un-named nomadic groups in the far east (Altai region) who also bore a 'Scythian" cultural tradition.

    In a study conducted in 2014 by VV Ilyinskyon on bone fragments from 10 Alanic burials on the Don River, DNA could be abstracted from a total of 7. 4 of them turned out as belonging to yDNA Haplogroup G2 and 6 of them had mtDNA I.[55]

    In 2015 the Institute of Archaeology in Moscow conducted researches on various Sarmatian-Alan and Saltovo-Mayaki culture Kurgan burials. In these analyses, the two Alan samples from 4th to 6th century AD turned out with yDNAs G2a-P15 and R1a-z94, while from the three Sarmatian samples from 2nd to 3rd century AD two turned out both with yDNA J1-M267 and one with R1a.[56] And the three Saltovo-Mayaki samples from 8th to 9th century AD turned out with yDNAs G, J2a-M410 and R1a-z94 respectively.[57]

    Autosomal studies
    In the recent two years new aDNA tests were made on various ancient samples across Eurasia, among them two from Scythian burials. This time the modern techniques of SNPs (in comparison to STRs in earlier tests) were in use. The Iron Age Scythian samples from the Volga region and European Steppes appear neither closely related to Eastern Europeans nor South- and Central Asians. Based on the results on professional as well amateur aDNA calculators both samples appear similar like a link between the Iranic speaking people of South-Central Asia as well people of the northern regions of West Asia on one side and Eastern Europeans on the other. This also fits fine with their geographic origin.[58][59][60]

    Ancient genome-wide analysis on samples from the southern Ural region, East Kazakhstan and Tuva, shows that Iron Age Scythians were a mix of Yamnaya people from the Russian Steppe and East Asian populations, similar to the Han and the Nganasan (Samoyedic people from northern Siberia). The East Asian admixture is pervasive across diverse present-day people from Siberia and Central Asia. The Eneolithic Yamnaya and the other Bronze Age kurgan groups from Pontic–Caspian steppe had a brunet pigmentation. Contemporary populations linked to western Iron Age Scythians can be found among diverse ethnic groups in the Caucasus, Russia and Central Asia (spread across many Iranian and other Indo-European speaking groups), whereas populations with genetic similarities to eastern Scythian groups are found almost exclusively among Turkic language speakers, particularly from the Kipchak branch of Turkic languages. These results are consistent with gene flow across the steppe territory between Europe and East Asia.[58][61][62]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scythians#Genetics
    _________________

    What do you think about scythians? I think they were Turkic with another ethnics.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AndarKhan View Post
    Please English with respect!
    kid first you need to have some respect here towards me

    are you mod to talk like this to me ? no

    have I said something that is disrespectful to member Kipchak Hakan ? no

    also despite that I disagree with many things he says he is one of the member I like and if he has something against my post he will say it himself

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