Udmurts, white or not?

[GoalPoacher]

Mongoloid admixture does not interfere with "white" look to the degree that SSA admixture does. In fact, the two are not even comparable. Someone who's 75% Caucasoid and 25% Mongoloid would look Caucasoid in most cases.

[Zanzibar]

Mongoloid admixture does not interfere with "white" look to the degree that SSA admixture does. In fact, the two are not even comparable. Someone who's 75% Caucasoid and 25% Mongoloid would look Caucasoid in most cases.

Yes but we are discussing about the concept of who is "white" here. I have heard from many users here that the threshold for being consider white is someone who is 90-95%+ European, if you are less European than that, you are not White.

Well its better to compare SSA admixture more to those of Native American than Mongoloid. Someone who is 25% Amerindian will show stronger Native influence in their phenotypes than someone who is 25% Mongoloid in my opinion.

[Borealis]

Honestly I have a hard time believing that those 2 freckled girls at the bottom are actually Udmurt. Their features are just way too sharp. Udmurts seem unusually European for their genetics but not that European. I found the photographer and made no mention of them being Udmurt when she posted the photo. I would contact her and ask her directly but that's going too far.

[Zanzibar]

Honestly I have a hard time believing that those 2 freckled girls at the bottom are actually Udmurt. Their features are just way too sharp. Udmurts seem unusually European for their genetics but not that European. I found the photographer and made no mention of them being Udmurt when she posted the photo. I would contact her and ask her directly but that's going too far.

They are probably Irish or some other type of East Euro.

Agreed, Udmurts are around 25-30% East Asian on average. They also seem to have minor Iranian/Caucasian-related input probably from ancient Scythian/Sarmatian nomads who used to roam the Urals.

[Borealis]

They are probably Irish or some other type of East Euro.

Agreed, Udmurts are around 25-30% East Asian on average. They also seem to have minor Iranian/Caucasian-related input probably from ancient Scythian/Sarmatian nomads who used to roam the Urals.

Holy shit, they do have some west Asianesque ancestry. I did not expect that. But they seem to be a mix of an east Slav(Russian)pop vs a pure Uralic group like Mansi.

[Zanzibar]

Holy shit, they do have some west Asianesque ancestry. I did not expect that. But they seem to be a mix of an east Slav(Russian)pop vs a pure Uralic group like Mansi.

Udmurts seem to have minor Iran_N/BMAC-related ancestry according to what I heard from Coldmountains in Anthrogenica:
1. https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post666816
2. https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post607251

Target: Udmurt
Distance: 4.1596% / 0.04159576
53.2 RUS_Bolshoy_Oleni_Ostrov
20.4 Anatolia_N
15.8 EHG
8.2 Caucasus_HG
2.4 TJK_Sarazm_En

Although Volga Tatars seem to have even more Iran_N/Caucasus/BMAC related ancestry even more than Udmurts. Tatars, Udmurts and probably other Volga Uralics seem to have legit significant Scythian/Sarmatian ancestry.


Actually from what I have learn from Coldmountains, Udmurts have very low Slavic/Russian admixture. Most of their European ancestry seems to be something Sintashta-like rather than Slavic/Russian. Instead, its the Mordovians/Erzyas who have very Balto-Slavic ancestry: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post568285

"sample": "Test1:Mordovian",
"fit": 2.4002,
"HUN_Avar_Szolad": 50,
"Baltic_EST_IA": 35.83,
"RUS_Sintashta_MLBA_o1": 4.17,
"Nganassan": 3.33,
"RUS_Bolshoy_Oleni_Ostrov": 3.33,
"TKM_Namazga_Tepe_En": 2.5,
"RUS_Sintashta_MLBA": 0.83,

"sample": "Test2:Udmurt",
"fit": 3.3583,
"RUS_Bolshoy_Oleni_Ostrov": 36.67,
"RUS_Sintashta_MLBA": 32.5,
"HUN_Avar_Szolad": 18.33,
"Nganassan": 7.5,
"TKM_Namazga_Tepe_En": 5,
"Baltic_EST_IA": 0,
"RUS_Sintashta_MLBA_o1": 0,

"sample": "Test1:Ukrainian",
"fit": 1.7654,
"HUN_Avar_Szolad": 84.17,
"Baltic_EST_IA": 14.17,
"Nganassan": 0.83,
"TKM_Namazga_Tepe_En": 0.83,
"RUS_Bolshoy_Oleni_Ostrov": 0,
"RUS_Sintashta_MLBA": 0,
"RUS_Sintashta_MLBA_o1": 0,


"sample": "Test2:Russian_Kursk",
"fit": 1.7213,
"HUN_Avar_Szolad": 59.17,
"Baltic_EST_IA": 35.83,
"TKM_Namazga_Tepe_En": 2.5,
"RUS_Bolshoy_Oleni_Ostrov": 1.67,
"RUS_Sintashta_MLBA": 0.83,
"Nganassan": 0,
"RUS_Sintashta_MLBA_o1": 0,

"sample": "Test1:Russian_Kostroma",
"fit": 2.13,
"HUN_Avar_Szolad": 45.83,
"Baltic_EST_IA": 39.17,
"RUS_Sintashta_MLBA": 5,
"RUS_Bolshoy_Oleni_Ostrov": 4.17,
"RUS_Sintashta_MLBA_o1": 3.33,
"Nganassan": 2.5,
"TKM_Namazga_Tepe_En": 0,


"sample": "Test2:Russian_Kursk",
"fit": 5.6619,
"Corded_Ware_Baltic_early": 56.67,
"Globular_Amphora": 35,
"SHG": 6.67,
"RUS_Bolshoy_Oleni_Ostrov": 1.67,
"MNG_Hovsgol_BA": 0,
"Nganassan": 0,
"TKM_Namazga_Tepe_En": 0,

Generally i would say that there is significant Scythian ancestry in the Volga region among Tatars, Udmurts and maybe Mari. Mordovians seem to be very Balto-Slavic like. Ukrainians and most Slavic Russians may have something around 5%-10% Scythian ancestry but it is hard to detect and i would rather say it is on the lower end of this estimate.

[Östsvensk]

Udmurts seem to have minor Iran_N/BMAC-related ancestry according to what I heard from Coldmountains in Anthrogenica:
1. https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post666816
2. https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post607251



Although Volga Tatars seem to have even more Iran_N/Caucasus/BMAC related ancestry even more than Udmurts. Tatars, Udmurts and probably other Volga Uralics seem to have legit significant Scythian/Sarmatian ancestry.


Actually from what I have learn from Coldmountains, Udmurts have very low Slavic/Russian admixture. Most of their European ancestry seems to be something Sintashta-like rather than Slavic/Russian. Instead, its the Mordovians/Erzyas who have very Balto-Slavic ancestry: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post568285

I noticed a weird connection of love-hate between Finnish and Iranian people (Persians and Kurds) in Sweden, that I could never really grasp. Also, not to forget that Finland which has always had more restricted borders than Sweden has a significant Kurdish minority. So it seems that they are cousins by proxy through Udmurts. That explains a lot, actually.

[Borealis]

Udmurts seem to have minor Iran_N/BMAC-related ancestry according to what I heard from Coldmountains in Anthrogenica:
1. https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post666816
2. https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post607251



Although Volga Tatars seem to have even more Iran_N/Caucasus/BMAC related ancestry even more than Udmurts. Tatars, Udmurts and probably other Volga Uralics seem to have legit significant Scythian/Sarmatian ancestry.


Actually from what I have learn from Coldmountains, Udmurts have very low Slavic/Russian admixture. Most of their European ancestry seems to be something Sintashta-like rather than Slavic/Russian. Instead, its the Mordovians/Erzyas who have very Balto-Slavic ancestry: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post568285

Very interesting. I only recently considered the possibility of them having heavy Slavic ancestry. I guess that my initial impression that they were a mix of some old CWC like group+Siberian was right after all? It would make sense because if their red hair genes were introduced by Russkies, then it wouldn't have become as prevalent as they are now so quickly. Selection following early admixture with a CWC-like group would make more sense.

Im more hesitant to buy into the Scythian explanation though. It seems every other Eurasian group has been claimed to be part Scythian only for it to later turn out to be bullshit. The Udmurt have a ton of EHG that is independent of their steppe but I would argue there seems to be a heavy EHG/WSHG substrate in ALL Uralic groups(besides Mordvin/Erzya) on both sides of the Urals, so Scythians aren't the necessary explanation. As for Ukrainians and Russians(not including the Finnic/Uralic mixed ones) having possible Scythian ancestry, I think it might be true cause they do get small extra traces of Caucasian, Mongol Slab grave, and EHG when modeled with Hun_Szolad. Not to mention, the Sarmatians existed in eastern Europe just prior to the Slavic push into the area, implying they were absorbed. But again, it's difficult to say if this came with them or with another similar nomadic group which we know were PLENTIFUL in this region.

[Mortimer]

Yes they are ultra white very white just look at them but probably less caucasoid than the French for example

[Zanzibar]

Very interesting. I only recently considered the possibility of them having heavy Slavic ancestry. I guess that my initial impression that they were a mix of some old CWC like group+Siberian was right after all? It would make sense because if their red hair genes were introduced by Russkies, then it wouldn't have become as prevalent as they are now so quickly. Selection following early admixture with a CWC-like group would make more sense.

Im more hesitant to buy into the Scythian explanation though. It seems every other Eurasian group has been claimed to be part Scythian only for it to later turn out to be bullshit. The Udmurt have a ton of EHG that is independent of their steppe but I would argue there seems to be a heavy EHG/WSHG substrate in ALL Uralic groups(besides Mordvin/Erzya) on both sides of the Urals, so Scythians aren't the necessary explanation. As for Ukrainians and Russians(not including the Finnic/Uralic mixed ones) having possible Scythian ancestry, I think it might be true cause they do get small extra traces of Caucasian, Mongol Slab grave, and EHG when modeled with Hun_Szolad. Not to mention, the Sarmatians existed in eastern Europe just prior to the Slavic push into the area, implying they were absorbed. But again, it's difficult to say if this came with them or with another similar nomadic group which we know were PLENTIFUL in this region.

Yep, I think your original thought on them being a mix of CWC-like group and Siberian is correct. Although they seem to have minor Iranian/Central Asian-like ancestry as well. Here are other models btw from Coldmountains.

This is one is to determine the amount of Slavic admixture in Udmurts and compare them to mainstream Russians. Avar_Szolad seems to be the main Slavic component as I'm not sure if Baltic_EST_IA
is also one.

Spoiler!

I looked at the Sintashta samples and tried to model Russians with the most EEF/HG shifted Sintashta samples (11024 and 11063). They are probably less relevant for Scythians/Srubnaya who generally became less EEF/Central Euro-like after mixing with other steppe and siberian people but they could be representative for Abashevo/Fatyanovo people ancestral to Sintashta. Using the 11063 sample Russians score a bit more Sintashta especially Mordovians, Russian_Kostroma and Udmurts. Maybe it is a signal of pre-Uralics in Central Russia but modelling Sintashta-like ancestry is quite difficult because Sintashta is too similar to other ancient East Europeans and we have no ancient dna from the region between Sintashta and Central Europe.

"sample": "Test1:Russian_Kursk",
"fit": 1.7216,
"HUN_Avar_Szolad": 45,
"Baltic_EST_IA": 41.67,
"BGR_IA": 5,
"RUS_Sintashta_MLBA": 4.17,
"RUS_Bolshoy_Oleni_Ostrov": 1.67,
"RUS_Sintashta_MLBA_o1": 1.67,
"TKM_Namazga_Tepe_En": 0.83,
"Nganassan": 0,

"sample": "Test1:Ukrainian",
"fit": 1.7099,
"HUN_Avar_Szolad": 62.5,
"Baltic_EST_IA": 26.67,
"BGR_IA": 6.67,
"RUS_Sintashta_MLBA": 2.5,
"RUS_Sintashta_MLBA_o1": 0.83,
"TKM_Namazga_Tepe_En": 0.83,
"Nganassan": 0,
"RUS_Bolshoy_Oleni_Ostrov": 0,

"sample": "Test2:Russian_Kostroma",
"fit": 1.9629,
"Baltic_EST_IA": 47.5,
"HUN_Avar_Szolad": 30.83,
"RUS_Sintashta_MLBA": 8.33,
"RUS_Bolshoy_Oleni_Ostrov": 5,
"BGR_IA": 3.33,
"Nganassan": 2.5,
"RUS_Sintashta_MLBA_o1": 2.5,
"TKM_Namazga_Tepe_En": 0,


"sample": "Test1:Mordovian",
"fit": 2.3574,
"Baltic_EST_IA": 37.5,
"HUN_Avar_Szolad": 33.33,
"RUS_Sintashta_MLBA": 10.83,
"RUS_Bolshoy_Oleni_Ostrov": 6.67,
"BGR_IA": 5,
"RUS_Sintashta_MLBA_o1": 4.17,
"Nganassan": 1.67,
"TKM_Namazga_Tepe_En": 0.83,

"sample": "Test1:Udmurt",
"fit": 3.3034,
"RUS_Bolshoy_Oleni_Ostrov": 36.67,
"RUS_Sintashta_MLBA": 27.5,
"HUN_Avar_Szolad": 10.83,
"BGR_IA": 7.5,
"RUS_Sintashta_MLBA_o1": 6.67,
"Nganassan": 5.83,
"Baltic_EST_IA": 4.17,
"TKM_Namazga_Tepe_En": 0.83,

"sample": "Test1:Russian_Pinega",
"fit": 2.6513,
"Baltic_EST_IA": 62.5,
"HUN_Avar_Szolad": 17.5,
"RUS_Bolshoy_Oleni_Ostrov": 8.33,
"RUS_Sintashta_MLBA": 5.83,
"Nganassan": 5,
"RUS_Sintashta_MLBA_o1": 0.83,
"BGR_IA": 0,
"TKM_Namazga_Tepe_En": 0,

"sample": "Test2:Russian_Smolensk",
"fit": 2.1067,
"HUN_Avar_Szolad": 70,
"Baltic_EST_IA": 27.5,
"RUS_Sintashta_MLBA": 1.67,
"TKM_Namazga_Tepe_En": 0.83,
"BGR_IA": 0,
"Nganassan": 0,
"RUS_Bolshoy_Oleni_Ostrov": 0,
"RUS_Sintashta_MLBA_o1": 0,

You could be right regarding the Scythian stuff. What modern day ethnic group do you think have the most Scythian/Sarmatian ancestry in your opinion? Here are also other models for Scythian affinity in Volga Ural folks:

1. https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post741431

Spoiler!

From a genetic point of view i would even say Mordovians are a strongly Uralic+Steppe_IA/MA shifted Balto-Slavic-like population. At least they get modelled as being mostly Balto-Slavic-like. Hard to say how much of these came with Slavs or with earlier Balts or basal Balto-Slavs. But based on them having lot of Slavic Y-DNA even shared with non-Russian Slavs i am not surprised if most arrived just recently with Slavs. Udmurts seem to be much much less Slavic-like

Target: Mordovian
Distance: 1.6034% / 0.01603432
62.4 HUN_Avar_Szolad
15.8 Baltic_LTU_BA
11.4 Sarmatian_RUS_Urals
7.0 Uyelgi
3.4 MNG_Xiongnu_East_Asian

Target: Mordovian
Distance: 0.9791% / 0.00979126
65.4 Ukrainian
18.2 Baltic_LTU_BA
8.6 Uyelgi
4.8 Sarmatian_RUS_Urals
3.0 MNG_Xiongnu_East_Asian

Target: Udmurt
Distance: 3.5458% / 0.03545750
38.0 Uyelgi
33.2 Sarmatian_RUS_Urals
17.2 Ukrainian
7.2 Baltic_LTU_BA
4.4 MNG_Xiongnu_East_Asian

Generally ancestry of Volga-Ural populations is very complex and Tatars/Bashkirs even seem to have minor BMAC admix so we see among them BMAC Y-DNA transmitted via Scythians/Steppe_IA/Steppe_Turkic. Some of these Central Asian Y-DNA is even found among Mordovians.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-PH1795/

2. https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post582481

Spoiler!

Model inbound.

Sample	Details				Fit	Map		CZE Early Slav	KAZ Kipchak	Mongola	RUS Bolshoy Oleni Ostrov	Sarmatian RUS Urals	Scythian RUS Urals
1	Bashkir:Average			2.8551 	Open Map	4.6		15.4		10.2	19.2				19.2			31.4
2	Tatar_Kazan:Average		3.7595 	Open Map	16.6		6		3.2	8.6				63			2.6
3	Tatar_Lipka:Average		4.2848 	Open Map	8.2		28.6		8.8	0.6				49.2			4.6
4	Tatar_Mishar:Average		3.8353 	Open Map	38.8		3.6		1.6	3.2				51.6			1.2
5	Tatar_Siberian:Average		2.5033 	Open Map	1		42.8		5.4	17				10			23.8

3. https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post585544

Spoiler!

I would replace CZE_Slavs with something like Rus_Sunghir_Ma or Avar_Hungary_Szolad (East Slavs were less Central-Euro shifted than these early Slavs from Czechia). Also Tatars have probably some Caucasian admixture i would say.


"sample": "Test1:Tatar_Kazan",
"fit": 2.5648,
"RUS_Sunghir_MA": 38.33,
"Sarmatian_RUS_Urals": 17.5,
"Scythian_RUS_Urals": 15.83,
"RUS_Bolshoy_Oleni_Ostrov": 10,
"Cherkes": 9.17,
"KAZ_Kipchak": 5.83,
"Mongola": 3.33,

"sample": "Test2:Tatar_Mishar",
"fit": 2.2361,
"RUS_Sunghir_MA": 57.5,
"Scythian_RUS_Urals": 15.83,
"KAZ_Kipchak": 7.5,
"Sarmatian_RUS_Urals": 7.5,
"RUS_Bolshoy_Oleni_Ostrov": 6.67,
"Cherkes": 5,
"Mongola": 0,

"sample": "Test2:Bashkir",
"fit": 2.179,
"RUS_Bolshoy_Oleni_Ostrov": 30,
"KAZ_Kipchak": 28.33,
"Scythian_RUS_Urals": 12.5,
"Cherkes": 11.67,
"Mongola": 7.5,
"RUS_Sunghir_MA": 5.83,
"Sarmatian_RUS_Urals": 4.17,

Udmurts also have some actual WSHG input right?

Well I thought there could be Scythian ancestry in Udmurts since they apparently seem to have minor Iranian/Central Asian-related affinity from what I have observed in some G25 and Vahaduo Gedmatch runs. Where do you think this Caucasian/BMAC stuff in Udmurts comes from then: Turkic ancestry from Tatars and Bashkirs, since they are also geographically next door neighbors? Ukrainians and Russians could indeed have some Scythian ancestry, although its likely minor according to David and Coldmountains.

Volga Tatars also could actually have Scythian ancestry as they score some Central Asian/BMAC-like input and Mongolia_North in small amounts.