Northern influence in Greeks.

[Laberia]

According to wiki, without going deeper:

Classification Edit

Due to the fragmentary attestation of this language or dialect, various interpretations are possible.[8][page needed] Suggested phylogenetic classifications of Macedonian include:[9]

A Greek dialect, part of the North-Western (Locrian, Aetolian, Phocidian, Epirote) variants of Doric Greek, suggested amongst others by N.G.L. Hammond (1989) Olivier Masson (1996), Michael Meier-Brügger (2003), Johannes Engels (2010), and Hatzopoulos (2011).[10][11][12][13][14]
A northern Greek dialect, related to Aeolic Greek and Thessalian, suggested among others by A.Fick (1874) and O.Hoffmann (1906).[10][15]
A Greek dialect with a non-Indo-European substratal influence, suggested by M. Sakellariou (1983) and Hatzopoulos (2011).[16]
A sibling language of Greek within Indo-European, according to a scheme in which Macedonian and Greek are the two branches of a Greco-Macedonian subgroup (sometimes called "Hellenic")[17] suggested by Joseph (2001), Georgiev (1966),[18] and Hamp & Adams (2013).[19]
An Indo-European language that is a close cousin to Attic Greek and also related to Thracian and Phrygian languages, suggested by A. Meillet (1913) and I. I. Russu (1938),[20] or part of a Sprachbund encompassing Thracian, Illyrian and Greek (Kretschmer 1896, E. Schwyzer 1959).
An Illyrian dialect mixed with Greek, suggested by K. O. Müller (1825) and by G. Bonfante (1987).

[brennus dux gallorum]

According to wiki, without going deeper:

That's what I was talking about

For sure not all academics accept Macedonian as Greek, and many support other theories, and for sure Macedonian was not settled as Greek in a few sources of 90s (today it's settled) we can't claim as an undeniable fact that it started as Greek, but disputing any possibility to be Greek is also wrong, as the biggest part of sources (and lately all) support it

[Köstebek]

North influence ,south influence....we are all what we are ,dont exist cristal pure peoples....every nation is formed so.....who know his ancestor bis to 1DC ? Nobody.....my ancestor with R1b L 23 can be greek and yours albanian....my ancestor in this time were maybe dacian, or thracian,or illyrian or epirotes or maybe italic or i dont know from Which fuck unknown villages that nobody know that exist....

L23 can be anything from Balkan to Armenian, from Bashkir to Turkish. Everybody have it. But especially the east

[wvwvw]

That's what I was talking about

For sure not all academics accept Macedonian as Greek, and many support other theories, and for sure Macedonian is not settled as Greek, we can't claim as an undeniable fact that it started as Greek, but disputing any possibility to be Greek is also wrong, as a part of sources support it

Of course it has been settled. No serious scholar disputes their Greekness.

[nightrider+]

That's what I was talking about

For sure not all academics accept Macedonian as Greek, and many support other theories, and for sure Macedonian is not settled as Greek, we can't claim as an undeniable fact that it started as Greek, but disputing any possibility to be Greek is also wrong, as a part of sources support it

There's no debate, neither any evidence of a distinct Macedonian language. They spoke Greek, probably a bit influenced from languages of their neighbors.

[Köstebek]

There's no debate, neither any evidence of a distinct Macedonian language. They spoke Greek, probably a bit influenced from languages of their neighbors.

Making such things open to debate is a trap.

[catgeorge]

That's what I was talking about

For sure not all academics accept Macedonian as Greek, and many support other theories, and for sure Macedonian is not settled as Greek, we can't claim as an undeniable fact that it started as Greek, but disputing any possibility to be Greek is also wrong, as a part of sources support it

be quiet half brain

Nikopolidis - Epirot
Venetidis - Thracian
Dabizas - Macedonian
Dellas - Macedonian
Zagorakis - Macedonian
Charisteas - Macedonian
Tsiartas - Macedonian
Nikolaidis - Thracian
Katergiannakis - Macedonian
Vryzas - Macedonian
Kafes - Macedonian
Lakis - Macedonian

Without North Greeks - there would be no 2004 Euro championship.

In fact wouldnt even make the tournament finals.

[catgeorge]

Jealousy

In ancient times - we ruled the world
In Medieval times - we ruled Balkans

In modern times we have given Athens a chance (Athens was never a capital of Greece only Pella and Constantinople was) -- but going no where in a hurry.

[brennus dux gallorum]

Of course it has been settled. No serious scholar disputes their Greekness.

I know, and for that reason I said a part of scholars, mainly in the past. We already see that the latest sources classifying it as non-greek are already old and outdated

But claiming that it surely was "non-greek" is far from reality as long as all the latest sources consider it to be Greek

[Peterski]

How hard is it to understand? There are few Slavic cultural traits because the Slavs were Hellenized? block-headed neo-Greek, are you of Arvanite ancestry or what? Or are you just Hellenass's brother?
The Slavs lived completely unmolested just in the Morea, let alone Macedonia, Epirus, Thessalia- for 218 years.

Έπί διακοσίοις δεκαοκτώ χρόνοις όλοις κατεσχόντων την Πελοπόννησον, και της Ρωμαϊκής αρχής αποτεμομένων, ως μηδέ πόδα βαλείν όλως δύνασθαι εν αυτή Ρωμαίον άνδρα»

"For 218 years that the Slavs have held Peloponnesus cut off from the Roman empire so that no Roman could set his foot in the region"

Can you imagine the demographic affect if Syrian Refugees held Attiki for 218 years? And we have shown they continued to exist there (even unassimilated Slavs) for hundreds of years more.

a) Mazaris wrote:

http://www.lithoksou.net/p/ta-%C2%AB...oria-1415-2010

«Εν Πελοποννήσω, ως και αυτός οίδας, ξείνε, οικεί αναμίξ γένη πολιτευόμενα πάμπολλα, ων τον χωρισμόν ευρείν νυν ούτε ράδιον, ούτε κατεπείγον. α δε ταις ακοαίς περιηχείται, ως πάσι δήλα και κορυφαία, τυχγάνει ταύτα. Λακεδαίμονες, Ιταλοί, Πελοποννήσιοι, Σθλαβίνοι, Ιλλυριοί, Αιγύπτιοι και Ιουδαίοι (ουκ ολίγοι δε μέσον τούτων και υποβολιμαίοι), ομού τα τοιαύτα επαριθμούμενα επτά» [Μάζαρις 1831, 174 και Μάζαρις 1860, 239].

"In Peloponnese, as you can see stranger, dwell various mixed ethne mixed among themselves, who's separation is neither easy nor necessary ... "Laconians" (Tzakones), "Italians" ( various western neolatin speakers as Italian, French, Spaniards etc),"Peloponnesians" (non Tsakonian Greek speakers), "Slavenes" (Slavs) "Illyrians" (Albanians), "Egyptians" (gypsies) and "Judaeans" (Jews).

b) The Navigator Laskaris-Kananos made the circumnavigation of western europe (Gibraltar, England, Northern Sea, Baltic Sea). When he reached the city of Lübeck/Ljubice which back then was the frontier between Germanic and Slavic speech he wrote:

Schließlich ist noch als Zeugnis aus dem 15. Jahrhundert für das Fortleben der Slaven am Taygetos eine Stelle aus der Schilderung einer Reise des Laskaris Kananos nach Deutschland und den nordischen Ländern zu erwähnen, deren Entstehung von Vasiljev (Buzeskul-Festschrift S. 397 ff) in die Jahre 1412—1418 gesetzt wird. Der Grieche schildert dort auch die Umgegend von Lübeck und nennt jenes Land Σθλαβουνία. Er fügt dann eine Bemerkung über die Verwandtschaft der lübeckischen Slaven mit den Zygioten im Peloponnes hinzu: Ἀπ᾽ αὐτῆς τῆς ἐπαρχίας ὑπάρχουν οἱ Ζυγιῶται οἱ ἐν Πελοποννήσῳ· ἐπεὶ ἐκεῖσε ὑπάρχουν πλεῖστα χωρία, ἅτινα διαλέγονται τὴν γλῶσσαν τῶν Ζυγιωτῶν. Vgl Vasiljev a. a. 399. Zu dem Namen Ζυγιῶται verweist der russische Historiker auf den Namen Sigo de la Chacoigne für den Taygetos in der französischen Fassung der Chronik vor Morea, welchen er mit griech. Ζυγός = Taygetos gleichseht. Vgl. auch

"From here starts 'Slavunia' (the land of the Slavs), the 'Zygiotes' (inhabitants of Zygòs = Taygetos) must have come from here, because there many villages here that speak the same language with the Zygiotes".

Procopius of Caesarea, "De Bellis", VII, 13, 24:

"For a great throng of barbarians, the Slavs, had, as it happened, recently crossed the river Danube, plundered the adjoining country, and enslaved a very great number of Romans."

Procopius of Caesarea, "De Bellis", III, 3, 9-19:

"The Slavs took the city [of Toperus] in the following manner. Most of them hid themselves in hilly country opposite the walls, and a few of them, going up before the eastern gates, annoyed the Romans on the parapets. The soldiers who were on guard there, thinking that they (Slavs) were no more numerous than those whom they saw, all immediately taking up their weapons, went out against them. The barbarians retreated, giving the appearance to their pursuers that they retreated out of fear. Those in ambush came out now, behind the pursuers, no longer allowing them entry into the city. Those who appeared to be fleeing now turned about and placed the Romans in a position of double attack. Having slain all of them, the barbarians attacked the wall. The inhabitants of the city, deprived of the soldiers, were at a great loss and defended themselves against the attackers with those that remained. First, heating oil and pitch, they poured it on the besiegers and, all of them hurling stones against them, came close to repulsing the danger. But then the barbarians, having driven them back from the parapets by a multitude of arrows and having placed ladders against the wall, took the city by storm. They slew all 15,000 men, plundered all the wealth, and enslaved all the women and children."

Procopius of Caesarea, "Historia Arcana", 18, 20-21:

"Illyria and all of Thrace, that is, from the Ionian Gulf to the suburbs of Constantinople, including Greece and the Chersonese, were overrun by the Slavs, almost every year, from the time when Justinian took over the Roman Empire; and intolerable things they did to the inhabitants. For in each of these invasions, I estimate, more than two hundred thousand Romans were slain or enslaved, so that all this country became a desert like that of Scythia."

Procopius of Caesarea, "Historia Arcana", 23, 6:

"The Slavs ravaged all of Europe; captured cities were either razed to their foundations, or made to pay terrible tribute; men were carried off into slavery together with all their property, and every district was deserted by its inhabitants because of the daily raids: yet no tax was remitted, except in the case of cities that had been captured by the enemy, and then only for one year."

John of Ephesus "Historia Ecclesiastica", 6, 25:

"That same year, being the third after the death of emperor Justin, was famous also for the invasion of an accursed people, called Slavs, who overran the whole of Greece, and the lands of Thessaly, and all Thrace, and captured the cities, and took numerous forts, and devastated and burnt, and reduced the people to slavery, and made themselves masters of the whole country, and settled in it by main force, and dwelt in it as though it had been their own without fear. And four years have now elapsed, and still, because the king is engaged in the war with the Persians, and has sent all his forces to the East, they live at their ease in the land, and dwell in it, and spread themselves far and wide as far as God permits them, and ravage and burn and take captive. And to such an extent do they carry their ravages, that they have even ridden up to the outer wall of the city, and driven away all the king's herds of horses, many thousands in number, and whatever else they could find. And even to this day, being the year 584 AD, they still encamp and dwell there, and live in peace in the Roman territories, free from anxiety and fear, and lead captive and slay and burn: and they have grown rich in gold and silver, and herds of horses, and arms, and have learnt to fight better than the Romans, though at first they were but rude savages, who did not venture to shew themselves outside the woods and the coverts of the trees; and as for arms, they did not even know what they were, with the exception of two or three javelins or darts."

Menander Protector, fragments 47 and 48:

"About the fourth year of the reign of Caesar Tiberius Constantine, some hundred thousand Slavs broke into Thrace, and pillaged that and many other regions. As Greece was being laid waste by the Slavs, with trouble liable to flare up anywhere, and as Tiberius had at his disposal by no means sufficient forces to contain them, he sent a delegation to the Khagan of the Avars [to ask him for help against the Slavs]."

Maurice, "Strategikon", 11, 4:

"The Sclavenes and the Antes live in the same way and have the same customs. They are both independent, absolutely refusing to be enslaved or ruled by foreigners, least of all in their own land. They are populous and hardy, bearing readily heat, cold, rain, nakedness, and scarcity of provisions. They are kind and hospitable to travellers in their country and conduct them safely from one place to another, wherever they wish. (...) They, unlike other peoples, do not keep those who are in captivity among them in perpetual slavery, but they set a definite period of time for them, after which they give them the choice: either, when they so desire, to return to their own homes if they purchase their freedom, or to stay among them as free people and friends."

http://www.ascsa.edu.gr/pdf/uploads/hesperia/147272.pdf

"There is clear evidence from the excavations of the Athenian Agora that the late sixth century witnessed some interruption in the peaceful course of town life in Athens. Certain buildings, for example, are known to have been burnt and temporarily or permanently deserted at that time. Finds of coinage, evidently concealed in haste or abandoned in emergency and never recovered, allow a date to be assigned to events, for which, although they are well attested by archaeological discovery, it would otherwise be very difficult to demonstrate a particular historical context. Byzantine chroniclers tell of a Slavonic invasion of Greece which took place apparently at the end of the year 578 or early in 579, as a result of which large numbers of Slavs settled in Greece... It is virtually certain that some of the destruction in the Athenian Agora, for which a date in the years immediately following the invasion is here proposed, was the work of the Slavs... Menander Protector, in his work chronicling the period ca. 560-580, writes as follows."