Age of consent

[The Lawspeaker]

What do I mean with "steps towards adulthood." ? We now have the ridiculous idea that people at age 18 are fully ready to take on the world. The brain doesn't work that way and perhaps we can instead let the transfer to becoming a mature human being go in stages as depending on the person and the development of his or her brain.

Age 12. A child can be heard in court in divorce cases. His or her decision will be the deciding factor.

Age 15. Jugendweihe or confirmation. Adolescence starts. Age of consent.

Age 21. Financial and partial independence (can be given from the age 16 too in case of certain parental issues). Your parents are no longer legally responsible for you.

Age 25. Military service, driving license, full independence.

[Debaser11]

How is having sex a "step towards adulthood"? It's not necessarily part of maturing in the mental sense. Anyone can have sex, unfortunately. I would think learning to show restraint toward sex would be a step toward adulthood. Delaying gratification and the urge to do something because some bodily impulse tells you to do so is what should be encouraged.

I'd be fine with keeping the age of consent on the high side (17). I don't know that I'd throw the book at a guy who had sex with a consenting fifteen year old, though.

[The Lawspeaker]

Let's forget about the American morality lessons for a while. We only have to look at the discrepancies in teenage pregnancies and STD-rates to know that we will learn nothing from them. And perhaps our British brethren can learn a thing of two from the continental European approach too. "Nuff said.

Mature people (and teenagers are well on their way to becoming that with all the urges and cravings attached to it) have sex. It's normal and healthy but there should be a set law. At age 15 or 16 a person is mentally capable enough to handle such stuff and a lot of boyfriends or girlfriends that are slightly older. It's a natural thing.

[Debaser11]

Let's forget about the American morality lessons for a while.

An undeservedly condescending way to blow off an argument. Again, I didn't bring patriotic chauvinism into this discussion, either. Is that a knee-jerk thing for you to use the American nationality as an ad hominem attack?

What if I were to say: "How about you can your silly Dutch relativism?"

Well, that'd be a first for me. Think about that.

We only have to look at the discrepancies in teenage pregnancies and STD-rates. "Nuff said.

How many minorities do you have in your country? Not as many as we do. And guess what? Minorities are the ones with the high STD rates who tend to spread them and who also are the ones largely getting pregnant as teenagers. Secondly, who said anything about America being better than Europe about pregnancies and STD-rates? This is a complete non-sequitur. Did it ever occur to you that there are things outside of the consent question that could also factor into pregnancies and STD-rates? Lowering the age of consent (and thus making sex permissive) wouldn't seem to help the matter. Furthermore, you have no evidence that raising the age of consent even in Europe and being less loose about sex wouldn't help lower your own STD rates.

And should we just push condoms onto 14 year olds so they can forever treat sex as a leisurely game and have the same stellar birthrates found among Europe's native population rather than emphasizing that sex is something sacred rather than being a "step"?

Mature people have sex.

Of course. So do immature people, unfortunately. People do a lot things. Big whoop. The above tells me nothing about whether the act should be done.

[It's normal and healthy

Argumentum ad naturam.

but there should be a set law. At age 15 or 16 a person is mentally capable enough to handle such stuff

Talk about an unsubstantiated claim! You can't just paintbrush an entire population as being ready for sex at that age. Obviously, it's not the same for everybody. Whether someone is "mentally capable" (the standards of which you didn't define at all) and what a society should promote to be good are two entirely different considerations.

[and a lot of boyfriends or girlfriends that are slightly older. It's a natural thing.

Again, an appeal to the natural doesn't impress me. Do you just pee in a crowded street because it's "natural and healthy" rather than let your blatter stain a bit until you find a more appropriate place to relieve yourself? When you're aroused, do you just jerk off right then and there irrespective of the time and place because it's "healthy and natural"?

[Wyn]

And should we just push condoms onto 14 year olds so they can forever treat sex as a leisurely game and have the same stellar birthrates found among Europe's native population rather than emphasizing that sex is something sacred rather than being a "step"?

This. Some time ago I was speaking to a type of social/community worker (not for my own needs, I met her when I was out and got talking about the group she's a part of), and she told me that her organisation gives condoms out to 13 year olds for free. As in, the 13 year old turns up, asks for some condoms, and they give them to them. I told her of course that this was disgusting and her response was that they'd "go and do it anyway".

Oh well, that attitude to sex certainly seems to be benefiting my country.

[The Lawspeaker]

Rate of teenage pregnancies around the world. I don't need much more to state the obvious. The Netherlands it that very light country (very small and not next to Rome .. o.k just in case) in North-Western Europe between Britain (yes the bigger island) and Germany.
Be careful... it's the one to the north as the other one is rebel country. So please... take your morality lessons and shove 'em.

How many minorities do you have in your country?

According to the Centraal Bureau voor de Statistiek a while back. Around 3 million out of a population 16.5.

Not as many as we do. And guess what? Minorities are the ones with the high STD rates who tend to spread them and who also are the ones largely getting pregnant as teenagers. Secondly, who said anything about America being better than Europe about pregnancies and STD-rates? This is a complete non-sequitur. Did it ever occur to you that there are things outside of the consent question that could also factor into pregnancies and STD-rates? Lowering the age of consent (and thus making sex permissive) should wouldn't seem to help the matter. Furthermore, you have no evidence that raising your age of consent and being less loose about sex in your country wouldn't help lower your own STD rates.

Apparently it does as we have the lowest abortion rate, teenage pregnancy rate and I am quite sure also one of the lowest STD-rates. A lot of teenagers have themselves checked at least once a month. As I said before: those in the risk group are the ones that don't get decent sex education and are from a conservative background. Usually the same kind of biblethumpers as that are so prevalent in the U.S.A.

How many minorities do you have in your country?

According to the Centraal Bureau voor de Statistiek a while back. Around 3 million out of a population 16.5.

And should we just push condoms onto 14 year olds so they can forever treat sex as a leisurely game and have the same stellar birthrates found among Europe's native population rather than emphasizing that sex is something sacred rather than being a "step"?

We don't have machines in schools yet (although some maybe have it) but every pub, a lot of restaurants and every single chemist has condoms available and it works.

[Debaser11]

This
Oh well, that attitude to sex certainly seems to be benefiting my country.

Sarcasm? Because I'd say it's not. Or does the "labor shortage" and it's likely links to sexual norms and attitudes not weigh on your mind?

[Wyn]

those in the risk group are the ones that don't get decent sex education and are from a conservative background. Usually the same kind of biblethumpers as that are so prevalent in the U.S.A.

Britain does badly in the areas of teen pregnancy etc. though, and we are not a conservative society at all. And I seem to remember sex education starting when I was about 10 or 11 years old. It was very comprehensive, too, as I recall.

[Wyn]

Sarcasm? Because I'd say it's not. Or does the "labor shortage" and it's likely links to sexual norms and attitudes not weigh on your mind?

HEAVY sarcasm, mate. If the sexual attitude of Britain as a whole was a place it could only be described as an abject shithole.

[The Lawspeaker]

Nothing that a little bit of common sense won't solve, Wyn. To the teenagers: use a bloody condom and a birth control pill. It's on the NHS (for as far as I know) so use it. And no: sex is not something you have because you're bored and alone in a room with one of the lads/lassies of the estate but because you're together as a couple and are ready for it.