Hallstatt Nordid Questions

[Hamlet]

Just two questions this time:

1) According to Coon, the Hallstatt Nordid type formed in its namesake culture, but did it really form before this, in say the Unetice culture, which is ancestral to Hallstatt? What made Coon think the Hallstatt type formed first specifically in the Hallstatt culture, basically.

and

2) Also according to Coon, "rufosity is virtually absent" from the Hallstatt Nordid type, yet (I believe) we now know that the Hallstatt culture belonged to R1b-U152, which would strongly indicate a large presence of red hair, as well as the fact that plenty of ancient paintings of pre-Roman Latin people (descendants of Hallstatts) with red-ish hair. Does this difference in pigmentation between the Hallstatt Nordids in Hallstatt and modern Hallstatt Nordids suggest a different origin for the two?



Thanks

[Columella]

1) on Coon yes (Aunjetiz= Unetice)

The Hallstatt crania from Austria, including those from the type site itself, form a reasonably homogeneous, entirely long-headed group. 16 (See Appendix I, col. 32.) This group is the legitimate, local successor to the Aunjetitz and like the latter it resembles the Danubian Neolithic series in many respects. In certain characters, however, it leans in a Corded direction, and these include a heightening of the orbits and a narrowing and lengthening of the nose. Certain of the individual crania are of definitely Corded type. Morphologically, as well as metrically, most of these skulls may without difficulty be designated as "Nordic"; the browridges are moderate, the foreheads moderately sloping, the occiputs protruding, the parietals flattened, the malars compressed, the mandibles deep. The stature was apparently moderately tall.

2) Maybe he was referring to his modern Northern Hallstatt/Osterdahl type which opposed the Rufousity of his "Troender" .



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[Hamlet]

1) on Coon yes (Aunjetiz= Unetice)

2) Maybe he was referring to his modern Northern Hallstatt/Osterdahl type which opposed the Rufousity of his "Troender" .

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Great info, thanks.

Do you happen to know why he thinks the Hallstatt type originated with the Hallstatt culture and then migrated to Scandinavia, as opposed to Hallstatt developing independently in Scandinavia?

[Columella]

Great info, thanks.

Do you happen to know why he thinks the Hallstatt type originated with the Hallstatt culture and then migrated to Scandinavia, as opposed to Hallstatt developing independently in Scandinavia?

Probably because of his Hallstatt = Corded+ Danubian theory. It must have happened in Central Europe

I think that he sees Hallstatt spread in Scandinavia as part of the Halstatt Iron Age culture expansion from Central Europe.
(Which before was occupied by Bronze Age Brachycephalic)


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[Hamlet]

Probably because of his Hallstatt = Corded+ Danubian theory. It must have happened in Central Europe

I think that he sees Hallstatt spread in Scandinavia as part of the Halstatt Iron Age culture expansion from Central Europe.
(Which before was occupied by Bronze Age Brachycephalic)


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Is there actually evidence of this? Also, why couldn't the dolichocephalisation have been from the Corded people rather than Hallstatt?

[Token]

The classic Nordid type that some people like to call Hallstatt Nordid originated from the mixing of Indo-European Proto-Mediterranid/Nordid invaders with the light-pigmented native people of Northern Europe.

[Hamlet]

The classic Nordid type that some people like to call Hallstatt Nordid originated from the mixing of Indo-European Proto-Mediterranid/Nordid invaders with the light-pigmented native people of Northern Europe.

Are you sure about that? Archaeologically those people were originally of the Cro-Magnid type, but somewhat gracilised from the Neolithic Funnelbeaker culture. I don't think that's right...

[Hamlet]

The classic Nordid type that some people like to call Hallstatt Nordid originated from the mixing of Indo-European Proto-Mediterranid/Nordid invaders with the light-pigmented native people of Northern Europe.

I'm not even sure those people were light-pigmented before the Corded Ware culture, though I'd be happy to be shown otherwise.

[Hamlet]

Probably because of his Hallstatt = Corded+ Danubian theory. It must have happened in Central Europe

I think that he sees Hallstatt spread in Scandinavia as part of the Halstatt Iron Age culture expansion from Central Europe.
(Which before was occupied by Bronze Age Brachycephalic)


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Was Scandinavia actually Brachy before the Bronze Age? That would be fascinating...

[Token]

Are you sure about that? Archaeologically those people were originally of the Cro-Magnid type, but somewhat gracilised from the Neolithic Funnelbeaker culture. I don't think that's right...

Yes, they were mainly Cro-Magnid but it's shown in genetic studies that they already had genes for blue eyes and blond hair before the Indo-European arrival. The further North you go more light pigmented individuals you will encounter and it's not because they are more Indo-European influenced, it's just climatic adaptation and natural selection. Actually, the Scandinavians and other Northern Europeans are one of the least Indo-European people in Europe: the Germanic languages, for example, are very influenced by the Paleo-European languages that existed in Europe before the PIE invasion and the Germanic people in general have a great amount of Mesolithic paternal lineages.