Macedonia and Bulgaria strengthen military ties

[Albobalboa]

It's not Albanians , Americans are responsible for this mess.

Albanians do what Americans tell them.

This mess? Macedonians do everything to keep Albanians down. Albanians simply outplayed them and became the decision makers, choosing who the leader will be leads to Macedonian infighting, which gives us an opportunity.

[Ujku]

I had to serve army before I could study university abroad this was in 2005.. no way that law has changed. You can not obtain paperwork legally in Greece if military was not served unless you pay a fine upfront.

I don't know , I have a few Greek friends that left just to not serve in the army.
I think that if you live abroad for 8 years you serve less or not at all..something like that..

[Ujku]

This mess? Macedonians do everything to keep Albanians down. Albanians simply outplayed them and became the decision makers, choosing who the leader will be leads to Macedonian infighting, which gives us an opportunity.

Yes , but if it wasn't for Americans and the ex pro Russian president nothing of this would of happen. I used a bad word there , i agree.

[Crn Volk]

Macedonia is ex-country by every possible criteria.

There is no reason why that country still exists.

Thank you for your jewish perspective

[Crn Volk]

Bulgaria and Macedonia haven't had that many actual problems in the past decades. The Macedonian identity has still remained and as some will be re-Bulgarized, some won't. That will lead to the amount of Bulgarians increasing and the amount of Macedonians decreasing, but Macedonians remaining. But you could be right, I just don't think the Macedonian-Bulgarian identities will co-exist well in Macedonia, not to the point where they will be able to unite in any significant way. Macedonians are split in half already without Bulgarian identity in the mix. Once some of them start declaring as Bulgarian and others don't, it will weaken Macedonianism. If they all become re-Bulgarized I'd agree it would be a problem for Albanian interests.

Actually Bulgaria accepts the reality of the Macedonian nation and language. The only issue is how we got here historically. The commission that is being established will result in an agreement of historical differences between the two.
As regards, Bulgarian identity, no one is going to change their Macedonian identity, relax. Macedonians have been identifying as such for generations and that won't change. Even Vasil Kanchov recognized this in his research;

"The local Bulgarians and Kutsovlachs who live in the area of Macedonia call themselves Macedonians, and the surrounding nations also call them Macedonians. Turks and Albanians from Macedonia do not call themselves Macedonians, but when asked where they are from, they respond: from Macedonia. Albanians, who also call their country Arnautluk, and Greeks who live in the southern area of Macedonia, do not call themselves Macedonians"

Vasil Kanchov, Orohydrography of Macedonia, 1911

[Archduke]

Actually Bulgaria accepts the reality of the Macedonian nation and language. The only issue is how we got here historically. The commission that is being established will result in an agreement of historical differences between the two.
As regards, Bulgarian identity, no one is going to change their Macedonian identity, relax. Macedonians have been identifying as such for generations and that won't change. Even Vasil Kanchov recognized this in his research;

Id really like to see how one day the history books in Macedonia and Bulgaria will write "Macedonian and Bulgarian" when it comes to our common heroes, events, writers etc.

[Dibran]

Ehh, a whole lot of wishful thinking there.

They are the most islamic but that doesn't relate to birth rates. Add to that they leave as soon as they get a chance. Best case they become 1/3 of the country in the future. In that case it would be good to have a Bulgarian identity as well clashing with the Macedonian one, divide and conquer.

Imo what Albanians are doing is the best scenario, they are trying to intergrate into the institutions as much as possible. Reform it from the inside, play the Macedonians against themselves and benefit from it. 1/3 of the Army being Albanians etc, those are the things to focus on, eastern front secured.

He has a point though. The fertility rates have plummeted in Macedonian Slavs, while the Albanian fertility rates have climbed dramatically. With a peaceful relationship established and a two party government (hopefully real beneficial changes), Albanians would need only wait, and due to time they would eventually outnumber them. This is evident in Slavs. they used to have the highest fertility rates, which aided in their domination of a good part of the balkans.

Pay attention to the signs. Yugoslavia has collapsed, their fertility rates plummet. Kosova gains its independence, America its strongest ally(at least for now) who has no plans of ever letting Russia gain influence over that part of the world. Macedonia reaches a peaceful arrangement with Albanians. Not only do we now have more representation, but given the rising fertility rates, you can bet we will be the majority in 50-100 years.

The only reasonable justification for your scenario is in the event that Macedonians do not honor their two party solution for equal rights and representation. Despite its decline, America is a prime example that many peoples of ethnic backgrounds and diverse religions can come together and benefit as a nation. This is something the Balkans lack. Its why we are considered the middle east of Europe.

The peace and stability all the balkan states pray for would be attainable if they exercised their reason, and extinguished their nationalism. The only things that matter are peoples actions. Our deeds are the only thing that will be remembered. A million years from now we will all be long dead, and the cultures for which we bleed and the blood which we shed will be forgotten. The only thing thats remembered is how people lived. I don't see why they cannot benefit.

Hell much like the thracians illyrians and all other ancient peoples are a thing of memory, so will we be. I mean look at the result of their works? where is the great empire for which they bled and took lives innocent and guilty? For all their hard work to stay on top, it didnt matter anyway. Still just a lost page in the history books.

Albanians as a people are in an interesting position with great opportunities before them. We can learn from this, and either be a beacon or we can repeat the mistakes of our neighbors, and just be another page...

History has already shown the most likely road a greater Albania would take anyway. We will be successful for a time. Grow corrupt, do the same thing done to us, and become a monster for the books.

Hell, look at Israel! They didnt even wait that long from their oppression in WW2 they learned a thing or 2 from ol Adolfo and got right to work crackn down on the Palestinians.

I don't agree with your scenario. Albanians should strive towards justice. If they do, they will always be on top. Look at Yugoslavia, they lost everything for their injustice. Repeating their mistakes wouldnt say much about us as a people.

[Albobalboa]

He has a point though. The fertility rates have plummeted in Macedonian Slavs, while the Albanian fertility rates have climbed dramatically. With a peaceful relationship established and a two party government (hopefully real beneficial changes), Albanians would need only wait, and due to time they would eventually outnumber them. This is evident in Slavs. they used to have the highest fertility rates, which aided in their domination of a good part of the balkans.

Pay attention to the signs. Yugoslavia has collapsed, their fertility rates plummet. Kosova gains its independence, America its strongest ally(at least for now) who has no plans of ever letting Russia gain influence over that part of the world. Macedonia reaches a peaceful arrangement with Albanians. Not only do we now have more representation, but given the rising fertility rates, you can bet we will be the majority in 50-100 years.

The only reasonable justification for your scenario is in the event that Macedonians do not honor their two party solution for equal rights and representation. Despite its decline, America is a prime example that many peoples of ethnic backgrounds and diverse religions can come together and benefit as a nation. This is something the Balkans lack. Its why we are considered the middle east of Europe.

The peace and stability all the balkan states pray for would be attainable if they exercised their reason, and extinguished their nationalism. The only things that matter are peoples actions. Our deeds are the only thing that will be remembered. A million years from now we will all be long dead, and the cultures for which we bleed and the blood which we shed will be forgotten. The only thing thats remembered is how people lived. I don't see why they cannot benefit.

Hell much like the thracians illyrians and all other ancient peoples are a thing of memory, so will we be. I mean look at the result of their works? where is the great empire for which they bled and took lives innocent and guilty? For all their hard work to stay on top, it didnt matter anyway. Still just a lost page in the history books.

Albanians as a people are in an interesting position with great opportunities before them. We can learn from this, and either be a beacon or we can repeat the mistakes of our neighbors, and just be another page...

History has already shown the most likely road a greater Albania would take anyway. We will be successful for a time. Grow corrupt, do the same thing done to us, and become a monster for the books.

Hell, look at Israel! They didnt even wait that long from their oppression in WW2 they learned a thing or 2 from ol Adolfo and got right to work crackn down on the Palestinians.

I don't agree with your scenario. Albanians should strive towards justice. If they do, they will always be on top. Look at Yugoslavia, they lost everything for their injustice. Repeating their mistakes wouldnt say much about us as a people.

Do the same thing they've done to us? If god wills it, I don't see that as a bad thing at all. But I agree with your point though, not make dumb mistakes. I don't agree on the fertility rate stuff though, I believe it is pretty set when it comes to the demographics of Macedonia as Albanians move out when they get the chance. The percentage of Albanian students in Macedonian schools is not increasing due to emigration, we have reached our top and the next 10-20 years with a young population will make sure we land at around 1/3 of the total. That is my honest estimate.

The rest of your response is like my initial idea was to start a war over it? I promoted the peaceful route, I want a stable eastern border, a Switzerland of the balkans where Albanians will hold important positions and be an intergrated part of society. I believe the Albanian identity and mentality to be superior and to have a disproportionate amount of influence in the long run, so being 1/3 of the total is no problem for me.

With injustice are you referring to perhaps future acts against Serbs? To me that is a given. The historical growth of the Kosovars is pretty much a sign from god that we are in the right, it's manifest destiny. If we do not use it in the coming 20-30 years when the young population is probably maxed, we will have thrown away a historical opportunity to avenge historical crimes. Let us not become like the other Europeans who simply accepted past crimes just to have future peace, it's an insult to the martyrs.

[Linebacker]

Bulgaria and Bulgaria II strenghten military ties.

[Dibran]

Do the same thing they've done to us? If god wills it, I don't see that as a bad thing at all. But I agree with your point though, not make dumb mistakes. I don't agree on the fertility rate stuff though, I believe it is pretty set when it comes to the demographics of Macedonia as Albanians move out when they get the chance. The percentage of Albanian students in Macedonian schools is not increasing due to emigration, we have reached our top and the next 10-20 years with a young population will make sure we land at around 1/3 of the total. That is my honest estimate.

The rest of your response is like my initial idea was to start a war over it? I promoted the peaceful route, I want a stable eastern border, a Switzerland of the balkans where Albanians will hold important positions and be an intergrated part of society. I believe the Albanian identity and mentality to be superior and to have a disproportionate amount of influence in the long run, so being 1/3 of the total is no problem for me.

With injustice are you referring to perhaps future acts against Serbs? To me that is a given. The historical growth of the Kosovars is pretty much a sign from god that we are in the right, it's manifest destiny. If we do not use it in the coming 20-30 years when the young population is probably maxed, we will have thrown away a historical opportunity to avenge historical crimes. Let us not become like the other Europeans who simply accepted past crimes just to have future peace, it's an insult to the martyrs.

Every side has their martyrs. Eventually the blood has to end. It takes the bigger person to change the course of history from the norm. Yes, Albanians are in the right...right now. The moment we "avenge historical crimes"(which is really a fancy way of saying the moment we commit the same crimes) is the moment you can bet we will no longer be in the right. At that moment it will blow back on us.

The people who committed historical crimes are long dead. The most recent of which were tried(some still awaiting justice), all else is empty talk by these clowns on forums. No one ever really does anything. I only support retaliation against aggression. I do not support organizing aggression against others. The moment Albanians do the same to their neighbors(if we had the tools) is the moment we deserve no recompense. You can't juggle right and wrong and assign whats wrong for one is right for the other. Wrong is wrong. full stop.

Justice and Injustice. these are the only things that matter. This is why serbs lost everything and the oppressed gained it. The moment you suggest starting aggression on our neighbors really makes you no different than them. If you are willing to live with the slaughter of men women children elderly, Infants being ripped from their mothers wombs. little girls raped and far worse. This is what they did. And given the tools you would pay it in kind?

Reading history, seeing it play out in the present, it all means shit if you're not willing to learn from it. Not willing to break the cycle. Of all things which have evolved, our humanity is the most primitive. We are little more than advanced apes. The moment we start considering all life as sacred, and judge all to the same standard, then its peaceful.

Please tell me how America could become a nation of various peoples and far surpass all other nations in dominance? Hows that for some Destiny? Now see as its heaping piles of corruption drive it towards decline...

Actions deeds, they all have consequences. You mentioned we shouldnt make the same mistakes, but exercising the same degeneracy in kind is not a mistake? History begs to differ.

We admire these nations of old, past in the dirt. Perhaps thats why we all meet the same fate. Time to stop glorifying history, and viewing it from the outside for what it is. A sum of mans deeds.. What better teacher?