How Finns became less Asian due to Indo-Europeans

[Finnish Swede]

Over all this kind of genetic discussion is boring (and full waste of anybodies time) IF we will not link it to the much higher purposes ... like who are superior to Finns in Europe and who are inferior to Finns in Europe?

I have pretty clear picture of that. Of course few ''so-so'' cases (ethnics). How about you?

[XenophobicPrussian]

She is only being a Frenchie.

http://www.biokemia.fi/Haeckels_Faces.htm

Let us quote Gobineau, recommended by Haeckel the scientist, on Finns, then:

"creatures so incontrovertibly ugly and repulsive as the ordinary specimens of the Mongolian race… These are all people of low stature, with wide faces and prominent cheek-bones, yellowish or dirty brown in colour---The Finns have always been weak, unintelligent, and oppressed---in the south through miscegenation with the Negroes and in the north with the Lapps." (Gobineau, Inequality of Races (1853-55, 1967).

To cut the short of a less romantic drama, Joseph Arthur "Comte" de Gobineau (1816-1882) proclaimed that a Finn does not have a stronger desire than to have a man of noble blood to spend a night on his tent with his wife or daughter. Gobineau divided mankind in three races: the White, the Black, and the Yellow (the Good, the Bad - and the Ugly, in essence). The Yellow were extremely ugly, and the group included not only Finns, but also Mongols and Tartars. Finnish historian Aira Kemiläinen writes (1998 p. 85):

"Finns were a primitive aboriginal people in Europe and in Asia. They were short of stature and deformed. Their limbs were feeble and they had protruding cheekbones and slanting eyes. They were more yellow than the Chinese, who had the blood of the White race. How else could the Chinese have created a high culture? Even the Hungarians were 'white Huns'; they had White ancestors… In an Aryan society at the top were Aryans, in the second class were the Celtic and Slavic peoples and men and women of mixed blood. The deformed Finns were lowest."---"

Gobineau was a Nordicist though, not a "white supremacist". He disliked Meds too. He is either only basing his experience on Saami or Russian Finno-Ugrics, or he's just full of shit. Finns were amongst the tallest in Europe(certainly taller than N. French), less wide faced than the heavily Alpinid French and Germans. French is kind of irrelevant I guess, because if he was a Nordicist he probably preferred people like Dutch/Flemish, Scandos, Germans, etc, the VUR brigade probably disagrees but even compared against Germans there's probably more Finns of the oldschool "Nordic" type than Germans(Finns below):

















Even if we take the Finnish type Gobineau talks about, say, Ilari Sahamies:



ignoring the eyes obviously and perhaps the cheekbones, people of his stature, skull shape, etc, the features most referred to in oldschool anthropology, aren't uncommon in W Europe.

[Lemminkäinen]

Sandis

Levanluhta was 500 AD, not 500 BC. They were Saami like people from the Saami era. Of course they were not exactly same as Saamis today.

[Lemminkäinen]

Over all this kind of genetic discussion is boring (and full waste of anybodies time) IF we will not link it to the much higher purposes ... like who are superior to Finns in Europe and who are inferior to Finns in Europe?

I have pretty clear picture of that. Of course few ''so-so'' cases (ethnics). How about you?

If the scientific facts don't interest you. We have many recent studies about Iron Age Estonians. We also know now that Iron Age Gotlanders were mostly Slavic, Estonian or Finnish like people.

[Sandis]

Ydna can't be compared to autosomal dna due to the bottle necks in ydna during to Bronze Age. Of course there have been bottle necks also in autosomal dna, but it does't prove against the ydna bottle neck. I have tried to open discussion about the meaning of the R1a in early Iron Age Estonia, but people usually get angry and ban me if it is possible, because they don't like to hear that Estonians were still in the Iron Age predominantly R1a, during the time the Finno-Ugric language is suggested to has come there. I don't even have to put forth this possibility. They can't even think the possibility that those N1c men came and subjugated those IE speaking R1a's, or even worse that the Baltic-Finnic language was in some extent bound to R1a.

The same hatred is obvious if you try to start discusdion about the origin of the Baltic N1c or Finnish I1, which btw is 2500 years old in Finland.

So here some emotions to you ��

Yes, there are still many questions about R1a in Baltic region. For example, Livonians have even more R1a and less N than Estonians.
My estimation for Livonians were 47.5 pct R1a and 28.3 pct N. I used data from Northern Courland and Southern Courland (R1a was higher in North and N higher in South) and assumed that ancient Curonians had similar values in North and South. However sample size was only 29 and 33 respectively. Here is a full table sorted by highest N/R1a ratio:



Also subclades of R1a is important, by data from https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/328024517.pdf Estonians have 5 pct. M-458:

[Finnish Swede]

If the scientific facts don't interest you. We have many recent studies about Iron Age Estonians. We also know now that Iron Age Gotlanders were mostly Slavic, Estonian or Finnish like people.

Gotland? I knew that first humans ever in Gotland island might have reminded Finns (the most). Yes. I know Gotland. I have been there. Have you been in Visby? It is beautiful city and so is whole island, lots of flowers etc. ... or it was until muslim refugees reached even there ... raping local young girl (who was in wheelchair).

[Lemminkäinen]

Gotland? I knew that first humans ever in Gotland island might have reminded Finns (the most). Yes. I know Gotland. I have been there. Have you been in Visby? It is beautiful city and so is whole island, lots of flowers etc. ... or it was until muslim refugees reached even there ... raping local young girl (who was in wheelchair).

I write about those Viking Age Gotlanders who were surprising eastern. Like Slavs, Estonians or Finns. They were more eastern than Viking Age people at Ladoga and Saaremaa. Actually in Saaremaa and Ladoga they were like recent Swedes.

Finns did exist 1000 years ago, but not during the Stone Age. So those first humans were not like Finns, they were hunter-gatherers by genes.

[Sandis]

If the scientific facts don't interest you. We have many recent studies about Iron Age Estonians. We also know now that Iron Age Gotlanders were mostly Slavic, Estonian or Finnish like people.

Gotlanders have 3 times higher Baltic-specific LWb blood marker than inland Swedes. I found it yesterday in this valuable article:

https://www.semanticscholar.org/pape...4bc47a65b6dd3f

[Östsvensk]

Gobineau was a Nordicist though, not a "white supremacist". He disliked Meds too. He is either only basing his experience on Saami or Russian Finno-Ugrics, or he's just full of shit. Finns were amongst the tallest in Europe(certainly taller than N. French), less wide faced than the heavily Alpinid French and Germans. French is kind of irrelevant I guess, because if he was a Nordicist he probably preferred people like Dutch/Flemish, Scandos, Germans, etc, the VUR brigade probably disagrees but even compared against Germans there's probably more Finns of the oldschool "Nordic" type than Germans(Finns below):

















Even if we take the Finnish type Gobineau talks about, say, Ilari Sahamies:



ignoring the eyes obviously and perhaps the cheekbones, people of his stature, skull shape, etc, the features most referred to in oldschool anthropology, aren't uncommon in W Europe.

Yeah, Gobineau was a Germanic + Celtic supremacist. I am pretty sure that he had never even seen a Finn. His argument for looking down on Finns was because they had no nobility, but had been ruled by a Swedish nobility. As Hungarians had their own, he considered them as higher ranking on his race ladder. Although he also looked down on Slavs and Hungarians and described Mulattos as more beautiful than them. Mongoloids were his least favourite race.

Gobineau was pretty influential for his time, but later, not even someone like Hans F.K. Günther could agree with him on everything.

It is evident that Gobineau's work on race, which was carried out before investigations into race had reached any tangible results, is in many of its details no longer tenable to-day.

- The Racial Elements of European History, Chapter XII

[Lemminkäinen]

Yes, there are still many questions about R1a in Baltic region. For example, Livonians have even more R1a and less N than Estonians.
My estimation for Livonians were 47.5 pct R1a and 28.3 pct N. I used data from Northern Courland and Southern Courland (R1a was higher in North and N higher in South) and assumed that ancient Curonians had similar values in North and South. However sample size was only 29 and 33 respectively. Here is a full table sorted by highest N/R1a ratio:



Also subclades of R1a is important, by data from https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/328024517.pdf Estonians have 5 pct. M-458:

Almost half of the Finnish N1c is from the 500 years old East Finnish expansion. We know it sure. So one example more of the ydna bottle neck. Similar bottle necks, followed by an expansion stage can have occurred also in Latvia etc. We simply cannot use distributions without knowing also clade ages.