Greeks stole Thracian, Macedonian territory

[Mingle]

The Pelasgians were an Arcadian tribe. Herodotus says that both the Dorians and Ionians were originally Pelasgians. The Dorian-Pelasgi came to Greece in 2200 BC and later in 1900 BC the Ionians came along and put a wedge between those in the north and those in the Peloponnese. The Dorian-Pelasgi in North-Western Greece became Dorians. Those in the Peloponnese and Thessaly became Pelasgi. The Dorian's were nomadic whereas the Pelasgi were City Dwellers hence their name Polis-gi.

I won't contest the rest of your post, but your info regarding their etymology is inaccurate. Wikipedia says the etymology of Pelasgians came from one of three sources: pelargos ("stork"), pelas gē ("neighboring land"), or *pelag-skoi ("flatland-inhabitants").

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelasgians#Etymology

[Mingle]

Whatever they were they were no Semites or Turks

Who said they were Semites or Turks?

[Tauromachos]

Who said they were Semites or Turks?

Some try to present native Med people as some sort of Semites who were Indo Euronized by some imaginary
blond invadors from the North...

Didn't say you do

[wvwvw]

I won't contest the rest of your post, but your info regarding their etymology is inaccurate. Wikipedia says the etymology of Pelasgians came from one of three sources: pelargos ("stork"), pelas gē ("neighboring land"), or *pelag-skoi ("flatland-inhabitants").

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelasgians#Etymology

Stop quoting from crapipedia please. Pelasgus does not mean stork. There is no "r" in Pelasgos. The only way Pelasgi can be broken up in Greek is into "Pelas" and "Gi"

The word Pelasgi is a corruption of the same root as the word Thallasa since the Pelasgi were people of the sea. The Pelasgi were all descended from Oceanus and their second or third cousins were the Aigialans which means people of the sea shore.

The word Pelagos itself, is actually two words, Pela meanig "settlement" which is from the same European root as "village" and "polis" and "Ges" or "Gias" meaning land or earth. Therefore Pelagos means "land that can be settled" and this is exactly the same meaning as Aigialea which means "Land by the Sea" or "Ai-gia-lea" from "Gialo" meaning coastal sea which is actual "Gia allo" meaning "other kind of land" and "Ai" which in all likelihood a shortened form of "Pela". The "gialea" in Aigialea come from the Greek word "gialo". https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/γιαλός

The Pelasgians and Aigialeans were part of the Inachid line which was part of the Oceanid and originated from the Peloponnese which was originally named after them Pelasgia and Aigialea. Deukalion was part of the Iapetid line and he came from Phthiotis. Phthiotis gets its name from Iapetus which in the bible is spelled Japheth hence Phthio-tis. Zeus was part of the Cronid line and even the name of Crete or Kriti is a corruption of Zeus's title Kronidis.

The Pelasgians were an Arcadian tribe and the first to build cities in Greece. The oldest cities in Europe are found in Arcadia. Pelas + Gi = City dwellers

Pelasgia means Land of Cities. When Pelasgus built the first cities in Arcadia he took the name Pelasgus and because they now lived in cities the people became Pelasgians. Greece was called Pelasgia and Aigialea before it was called Greece, two centuries after Homer.

Pelasgos, who is said to have built the
first city in Greece at Lukosovra, from which the others on the mainland
learned how to build cities. The Arkadians were therefore the first
"architects" of Greece (arxi-tekton = Arkas' stonemasons).

What Pelasgos appears to have done was establish sanctuaries of Zeus, during
 which the time, all of his people were eating oak-fruit, and like the
 Selloi, probably slept on the bare ground beneath oaks.

Pella, the capital of Macedonia has to be a Pelasgian name since Macedonia was where all the Greek tribes originated from.

This might go some way to explain the alliance between the Arcadians and Macedonians in the fourth century. The name "Pelasgialeans" was probably the original name of all these Greek speaking tribes including the Hellenes.

Before Pella, the earlier capital of Macedonia was Aigiai. The new name Pella, seems to suggest a northwards migration of Pelasgians (as evidenced by the Makedonians claiming their descent from Argive Herakles and Tegean Phylakos), hence pointing to the southern formation of the Pelasgians. The Pelasgian push northwards is also found in the settlement of Mysia by Tegean Telephus. While the Pelasgians may well have descended from the northern Aigai, they do not appear to have existed in name at the time of the earlier southern migration of Aigai.

Pelasgians also were one of the Sea People. All the tribes which occupied Greece spoke Greek related dialects since they all knew that Pelas meant City, Gi meant land and Gialon meant Sea and Akri meant Edge since all used combination of this words as their tribal names. The name "Pelasgialeans" was probably the original name of all these tribes and the further north you go the more the name is corrupted.

The Pelasgi were everyone who dwelled in cities. The Hellenes according to Herodotus were nomadic so would not have qualified as Pelasgi except for the Ionians who were the Aigialean Pelasgi. Aigialea mean shore in Greek and Aigialeans means sea coast dwellers.

The names Anglia (ENGLAND) and Yalta also derive from Greek Aigialea.
https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE...BB%CF%8C%CF%82

The Old English were in fact speaking Ancient Greek and in fact the name for England or Agglia (or Anglia) is EXACTLY the same as the old name for Greece which was "Aigelia". Thus the so-called Angles were actually Ionian Greek colonists who as Herodotus tells us were called Aigelian Pelasgi.

The Aigelian Pelasgi spoke Arcadocypriot Greek but after the Ionians (who spoke a different dialect hellenic rather pelasgian greek) joined them they were named Ionians, after their eponymous founder Ion.

In fact the name John which is derived from the Greek name Ion as is preserved in the Scandinavian spelling of Jon and was spread thought Europe by the Myceneans who colonised Italy, Spain and went as far Hyperboria as well as becoming the rulers of Palestine. Thus Ion also became Juan (Wan), Wayne, Jean, Gene, Euan, Ioannis, Giannis, Janus and derives from the ancestral the name of the Greeks themselves who were known as Aigialean Pelasgi before the term Aigialean meaning Sea People was corrupted by the Hittites in Asia-Minor into Ahhiyawa which later became Yunni the namer by which the Greeks where known by the Egyptians and Persians.




The Pelasgi lived inland. Just look at where the Arcadians lived who were originally Pelasgi. Pelasgi means City Dwellers (Polis-Gia) or Polis-Yious i.e sons of city.

The Athenians were Pelasgians, Earth Born and the Ionians were Aiglialean Inachids who according to the archaeology were descended from the Greek tribes who migrated to the Greek peninsula in 1600 BC.

The Pelasgi did not speak the Hellenic dialect of Greek and did not multiply much. Hellenic was a dialect of Pelagic and the Hellenic speakers the Inachids (Achaean, Attic and Ionian speakers) and Iapetids (Aeolian speakers) did multiply.

The Pelasgians that lived from 1600 to 1500 BC were intermixed with the Cretans but the Pelasgians that came after them were a different civilisation that came from the north. They were still all Greeks since both civilisations used the name Pelasgain to describe themselves as city dwellers. There is also the Greek Danai who returned from Egypt in about 1480 BC who must have descended from the Greek Hyksos which is a corruption of Akhaiwoi or Akhiyawa or Ekwesh. This would make the Danai Aigialeans or coastal dwellers descended from Io who was the daughter of Inachus and the sister of Aigialeus.

It took at least 2 generations until the time of Nyctimus for all of Arkadia to be settled and over 50 cities to be built, hence the name Pelasgians or City Dwellers.

Pelasgian was the Greek term for city dweller and applied to all city dwellers who were GREEKS. The Greeks had a special name for foreigners. The Arcadian dialect is directly related to the Cypriot and the Cypriot to the Cretan. These Pelasgians were clearly GREEK speakers.

The Pelasgians were named after the Polis. The Greeks already had the word Polis and its variants otherwise they would not have called the Aigialeans Pelasgians.

Pelasgian means city dweller and Aigialean meant someone who dwelled on the coast.

[wvwvw]

And let's take a look what ancient writers wrote about Pelasgians:

[Apollodoros M. 11.2,3]
PELASGIANS, was the unitary name which represented the Greek nation as a whole, before the cataclysm of Deukalion & the following division into the known Greek tribes of Danaans, Achaeans, Dorians, Aeolians, Ionians, etc
Pelasgos was the son of Zeus & Niobis, native grandfather of Thessalos, progenitor of the Pelasgians.

Homer, Sophocles, Hesiodos, Thucydides, Hecataeus, Apollodoros, Plutarch, Herodotos, Strabo, Aeneas Virgilius, Ovidius, Dionysios Alikarnasseus all said that Pelasgians were Greek

Plutarchos calls Pelasgians a Greek nation:

"...Pelasgians, a Greek nation which did not came from elsewhere but we were born autochthonous"
(Plutarchos Peri fyges 604D-E,13)

Strabo says that Pelasgians were Greeks as the Danaans and Argeians
"I think it was the glory of the city which prepared them to be called after her, the Pelasgians, the Danaans & the Argeians and the other Greeks."
(Strabo G H VI 8)

All Latin poets called the Greeks Pelasgoi:

Virgilius as all Latin poets was calling the Greeks "PELASGI"
eg:"Reges Pelasgi" (Aeneas A624)

The Greek Pelasgians were the first to colonize Italy "Pelasgi qui primi coluisse Italiam" (AGell.Atticae A10)

Also Latin poet Ovidius refering 2 the events of the Trojan War identifies the Pelasgians with the Greeks
(Metamorphoses XII XIII)

"This was the next Greek nation after the Pelasgians to come into Italy and to take up a common residence with the Aborigines, establishing itself in the best part of Rome"
(Dionysios Alikarnasseus-Roman Antiquities)

Hectacos: Pelasgos from which Pelasgians derived was GREEK KING FROM THESSALY
Acousilaos: Pelasgos was Greek his father was Lycaon, both of Peloponnesian genealogy
In Prometheus: Pelasgian land means GREEK ARGOS
Ephoros: Pelasgian simply means prehistoric GREEK
Sophoclis: Pelasgian is synonymous to Greek
Thucydidis shares the same general view that Pelasgians are early Greeks
Dionysios Alikarnasseus: The Greek Pelasgians came to Rome

[wvwvw]

I think Petros is referring to the Pelasgian Ionians ("Aegialian Pelasgians").

The Pelasgians are said to be the pre-IE people of Greece, so they couldn't have been Greek-speaking. Here is what Herodotus says about the Pelasgians:

The Pelasgians did not exist before 1600 BC at the earliest so anything 
before that time cannot possible in any way be called Pelasgian. Nor can it 
be called pre-Greek since the Greeks were already in the Greek peninsular by 
2200 BC and were already in Mycenae by 1600 BC and that is exactly when the 
Pelasgians first appear in the historical record being Argive Greeks who 
migrated to Arcadia and then moved to Thessaly in 1450 BC as well as 
founding colonies in Italy at the same time.

So he seems to uncertain about their language, but if he had to guess based on the evidence, then he thinks they spoke a "barbarian" (i.e. non-Greek) language. If they spoke Greek, then he would have mentioned it.

The term barbarian was used by Herodotus to refer to people who did not speak the Hellenic dialect of Greek. It was also used by the Athenians to refer to those who did not speak the Attic dialect of Greek including the Spartans and Macedonians who as we know were both Greek tribes who spoke the Doric dialect.

Herodotus say that all the Pelasgi he know spoke the same dialect
 irrespectively of where they lived. Hellenic was a specific set of Greek dialects and Pelasgic was another set of Greek dialects. All the Hellenic dialects, Doric, Aeolic, Achaean and Attic-Ionic were descended from Pelasgian.

The Pelasgians did not follow the rules of Greek grammar and did not speak the Hellenic dialect of Greek so they called them Barbarians even though Herodotus andevery other write said that without a doubt Greek was descended from Pelasgic.

Only the Greeks descended from Dorus, Aeolus and Xuthus or who had kings descended from them were called Hellenes. Their kings were all descended from Hellen. The people and the language was a branch of the Pelasgians as is stated by Herodotus.

The Pelasgians were a non-Hellenic Greek tribe. But the Pelasgians are Greeks by definition since the Greeks were named after Graecus the son of Thessalus the son of Haemon the son of Pelasgus.

In Herodotus time Pelasgians was still spoken by the Pelasgians beside Thrace and in Creston (Italy) above the Tyrrhenians and everywhere else Pelasgians lived. Herodotus heard the language because he visited these places and know that it was common to all Pelasgians and that Greek was descended from it, whereas it bore no relation to any other languages.

Pelasgian was a dialect of Ionic-Arcadian-Cyprian-Mycenaean since the Pelasgians came from Arcadia, and also since Herodotus could recognise it since he spoke the Ionic dialect.

Herodotus was discussion the origin of the Hellenic race and that race he considered to be a branch of the Pelasgic race. The term Greeks applies to both Hellenes and Palasgains since it was coined by the Romans because the Pelasgians were the first people from Greece that they met. The term barbarian was used by Herodotus to refer to anybody who did not speak the Hellenic dialect of Greek.

[wvwvw]

Who are the Cronids? Are you referring to the Cranai?

The Cronids gets its name from Cronus/Saturn. The line of Zeus from which Cretans descended. From the Kronidis you get Kritids or Crete. Dardanus father was Korothos another Cretan. This clearly indicates a Minoan Greek origin of Troy and therefore no relationship with any other inhabitants of Asia-Minor. Archaeology shows that Troy was built by the Minoans in 2800 BC and has no similarities with either Hittite or Lydian or any other culture of Asia-Minor. In fact if the Maeonians are Phrygians then the Tyrsenoi would not have even been in Asia-Minor until 1000 years later than the Minoans, since the Phrygians obviously came at the same time as the Achaean invasions of 2200 and 1900 BC and used to live next to the Macedonians.

The people of Greece were descended from 6 founding tribes. 3 of them became almost extinct. 3 survived into the archaic age. The founding tribes assimilated the earlier peoples who inhabited the land in the 18 century BC into 3 or 4 cities with populations of 20,000 to 150,000. These tribes were called Pelasgains or City Dewlers. The Arcadians were originally Pelasgians as were the Aigialeans. Those who did not dwell in the new cities became extinct after the Thera Eruption in 1600 BC because the land could not support them. This mass extinction is pretty well documented. The Kronids ruleld Crete, the Inachids ruled the Peloponnese, the Iapetids ruled Thessaly, the Hyperionids ruled Troy and the eastern Aegean islands. I do not know the fate of the Criids and Coeids.

Hellenes and the Pelasgians were two tribes which occupied Greece at the same time and the Hellenes became dominant. Hellenic was a branch of Pelasgic. The Hellenes were descended from Hellen the son of Deukalion whereas the Pelasgians were decended from Pelasgus the son of Triopas or Pelasgus the son of Niobe and brother of Argos. Deukalion was descended from Iapetus and Argos from Oceanus both sons of Uranus. They were therefore the same people.

Pelasgus was the son of Triopas the king of Argos and thus a relative of Danaus. His son Thessalus went on to colonise Thessaly which was named after him hence the Pelasgians that Herodotus is referring to are Argives. An Argive is a descendent of Argus. The original Argives were not Hellenes, they were Inachids. Neither the Danaioi, Pelasgians and the original Argives were Hellenes. They were all Greeks, but Inachid Greeks not Hellenic Greeks. The Hellenes were of the same common origin as the Pelasgians but the Hellenes became more dominant. Deukalion shared Thessaly with Haemon the son of Pelasgus who was the father of Lycaon who lived in 1500 BC.

[Petros Houhoulis]

Just cause it has some cognates with Baltic languages doesn't make it Baltic. It could have been a third branch in the Balto-Slavic language family or not in the BS language family entirely. Both Lithuanian and Thracian are IE languages, so it makes sense that they have cognates. Since Lithuanian is the language closest to PIE,

PIE is actually a RECONSTRUCTED language. I would NOT dare suggest which language group is closer to an almost fictional language.

it would be more likely to find cognates in Lithuanian than in other languages.

...Assuming that the Lithuanian language is the closest modern language to PIE...

If things were that simply, then linguists would have accepted it as a Baltic language but only a minority have. There are more cognates between Turkic and Mongolic, but nobody accepts that language family.

Hold on a minute. The Altaic language family is far from over! Let's take a look:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altaic_languages

The Turkic, Mongolic, and Tungusic groups are invariably included in the family; some authors added Korean and Japonic languages.^[5] These languages are spoken in a wide arc stretching from eastern Europe, through Central Asia to Anatolia and to the Korean Peninsula and Japanese archipelago in East Asia.^[6] The group is named after the Altai mountain range in Central Asia.
This view was widespread prior to the 1960s, but has almost no supporters among specialists today.^[7] The expanded grouping, including Korean and sometimes Japanese, came to be known as "Macro-Altaic", leading to the designation of the smaller grouping as "Micro-Altaic" by retronymy. Most proponents of Altaic continue to support the inclusion of Korean.^[8]

Let's check the note 7:

"Georg et al. 1999: 73-74"

BUT...

There is a list of Pro-Altaicists and Anti-Altaicists in the same wikipedia page. Let's take a peek:

Altaicists[edit]

• Pentti Aalto (1955). Turkic–Mongolic–Tungusic–Korean.
• Anna V. Dybo (S. Starostin et al. 2003, A. Dybo and G. Starostin 2008).
• Karl H. Menges (1975). Common ancestor of Korean, Japanese and traditional Altaic dated back to the 7th or 8th millennium BC (1975: 125).
• Roy Andrew Miller (1971, 1980, 1986, 1996). Supported the inclusion of Korean and Japanese.
• Oleg A. Mudrak (S. Starostin et al. 2003).
• Nicholas Poppe (1965). Turkic–Mongolic–Tungusic and perhaps Korean.
• Alexis Manaster Ramer.
• Martine Robbeets (2004, 2005, 2007, 2008).
• G.J. Ramstedt (1952–1957). Turkic–Mongolic–Tungusic–Korean.
• George Starostin (A. Dybo and G. Starostin 2008).
• Sergei Starostin (1991, S. Starostin et al. 2003).
• John C. Street (1962). Turkic–Mongolic–Tungusic and Korean–Japanese–Ainu, grouped as "North Asiatic".
• Talat Tekin (1994). Turkic–Mongolic–Tungusic–Korean.

Major critics of Altaic[edit]

• Gerard Clauson (1956, 1959, 1962).
• Gerhard Doerfer (1963, 1966, 1967, 1968, 1972, 1973, 1974, 1975, 1981, 1985, 1988, 1993).
• Susumu Ōno (1970, 2000)
• Juha Janhunen (1992, 1995) (tentative support of Mongolic-Tungusic).
• Claus Schönig (2003).^{[citation needed]}
• Stefan Georg (2004, 2005).
• Alexander Vovin (2005, 2010). Formerly an advocate of Altaic (1994, 1995, 1997, 1999, 2000, 2001), now a critic.
• Alexander Shcherbak.
• Alexander B. M. Stiven (2008, 2010)^{[citation needed]}.

Advocates of alternative hypotheses[edit]

• James Patrie (1982). Turkic–Mongolic–Tungusic and Korean–Japanese–Ainu, grouped in a common taxon (cf. John C. Street 1962).
• J. Marshall Unger (1990). Tungusic–Korean–Japanese ("Macro-Tungusic"), with Turkic and Mongolic as separate language families.
• Joseph Greenberg (2000–2002). Turkic–Mongolic–Tungusic and Korean–Japanese–Ainu, grouped in Eurasiatic.
• Lars Johanson (2010). Agnostic, proponent of a "Transeurasian" verbal morphology not necessarily genealogically linked.

Since 1999 when Georg made his assessment that Altaic is supported by a minority of scholars, we have 5 scholars who wrote books supporting the Altaic theory, 5 who discredit the Altaic theory (two without a citation in the wikipedia page) and another 2 with alternative hypotheses. I would not suggest that the Altaic theory has been discredited, given those numbers...

There are also a lot of cognates between Turkic and Amerindian languages.

This happens to many agglutinative languages. They appear to have some very distant ancestor who had the C haplogroup.

I'm not ruling out the possibility of it being a Baltic language, but the amount of scholars that support that theory are a tiny fringe minority.

I woudn't call them a "fringe minority". There is no overall majority among the scholars dealing with this issue, as you can see:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classi...on_of_Thracian

In any case, of all the scholars listed together with their theories, only Duridanov makes a list of cognates:

Of about 200 reconstructed Thracian words by Duridanov most cognates (138) appear in the Baltic languages, mostly in Lithuanian, followed by Germanic (61), Indo-Aryan (41), Greek (36), Bulgarian (23), Latin (10) and Albanian (8).

The list betrays that Thracian is closer to distant geographic languages (Lithuanian, Germanic, Indo-Aryan) than neighboring languages (Greek, Bulgarian, Albanian) which speaks volumes about the generic relationship of Thracian.

Triballians are shown on maps to have lived around the Serbia-Bulgaria-Romania border region. Serbs are descended from the Moesians, Triballians, and Treres people in addition to the Slavs and Celts (Scordisci, Taurisci). Illyrians also lived in southwest Serbia but the majority of it Thracian with a bit of Slavic.

Yes, but you conveniently forget that Croatian, Bosniak and Montenegrin are basically the same language with Serbian, and plenty of them lived in Illyrian territories.

Also, the Geto-Dacians were a Thracian tribe. They are just distinguished sometimes from other Thracians since they were more significant than all other Thracians combined.

There is no such thing as a "pure Thracian". It was just an ethnolinguistic group.

That was a typo of mine, I wanted to write that the Moesians are also not "pure Thracians" in the sense that they are not described solely as Thracians by the Ancient authors.

Illyrians were recorded to have been the pre-Celtic peoples of Noricum before the Noric Celts became the majority in modern day southern Austria. So yes, they were pushed south since they have recorded settlements in Central Europe. The Illyrians and Triballians lived in different places so I'm not sure what connection you're making there anyways.

Illyrians and Triballians lived in nearby areas, some of which are parts of Serbia today. This is the only connection.