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Thread: The Genetic study of Peloponnese is a pseudoscientific study.

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    Default The Genetic study of Peloponnese is a pseudoscientific study.

    Quote Originally Posted by cybernautic View Post



    Yeah
    Go ahead and announce in public to the scientific world that the paper published by Stamogianopoulos is wrong.
    Prove that you are right and Stamogianopoulos a professional geneticist who was Director of the human genome project is wrong
    Here you can read this study:
    http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v...hg201718a.html

    Abstract
    Here we use 2.5 million single-nucleotide polymorphisms to investigate the genetic structure of Peloponnesean populations in a sample of 241 individuals originating from all districts of the peninsula and to examine predictions of the theory of replacement of the medieval Peloponneseans by Slavs.
    Introduction

    Here is the theory to be debunked, because this is the intention of the authors of this study.
    In 1830 CE, the German historian Jacob Philipp Fallmerayer presented his theory of disappearance of the Greek nation and its substitution by Slavs.9 Fallmerayer proposed that during the 6th century CE, large armies of Avars and Slavs overran the Balkans and eliminated the populations of the Hellas, who up to that period had successfully survived the attacks of barbarians and the religious suppression by the Byzantines. The Peloponnesean Greeks, except for few remnants enclosed in coastal castles, were slaughtered or forced to leave and Peloponnese was inhabited by Slavic tribes. The Slavs kept their identity for few centuries but eventually they were Hellenized under the influence of the Orthodox Church and interactions with Hellenized Asia Minor populations who were settled in Peloponnese by the Byzantines.
    And here is the conclusion of the study.
    Our results reject the theory of extinction of medieval Peloponnesean Greeks and their replacement by Slavic and Asia Minor settlers.
    To prove that the theory of extinction of medieval Peloponnesean Greeks and their replacement by Slavic and Asia Minor settlers, the authors of the study tested 241 individuals originating from all districts of the peninsula.
    The conclusion of the study reject this theory.
    The first question is: Who are the individuals tested by the authors?

    Subjects and methods
    Design of the study and populations studied
    We focused on the rural population. We analyzed a total of 241 samples genotyped with the Illumina Infinium Omni 2.5–8 arrays. This is a novel data set collected under the auspices of our study. Subjects were included in the study if all four grandparents originated from the same village or from villages that were <10 kilometers apart. The ages of most participants ranged between 70 and 90 years (the oldest subject was 107 years old); hence their grandparents were born between 1860 and 1880. In the 1861 census the population of Peloponnese was 578 598 individuals.
    Here we have the first contradiction. The task of the authors is to prove the veracity or not of events happened in the first millenia AD, not in the second millenia AD.
    Are these 241 individuals tested by the authors, descendants of the people who lived in the Peninsula during the events described by medieval chronicles, Fallmerayer and other authors?
    I think no.
    From the 6 century AD until at least in the XVII century, the Peninsula of Peloponnese has been emptied and repopulated different times. The last time, in my knowledge was during the Morean War in 1684–99, between Ottoman Empire ans Venetians.
    Here we have an interesting page from Wikipedia:
    Kingdom of the Morea
    In this page we read:
    Administration
    Already in 1688, with their control of the country practically complete, the Venetians appointed Giacomo Corner as the governor-general (provveditore generale) of the Morea to administer their new territory. The task he faced was daunting, as the population had fled from the coming of war: 656 out of 2,115 villages were deserted, almost all the Muslim population had abandoned the peninsula for lands still in Ottoman hands, while even towns like Patras, which numbered 25,000 inhabitants before the war, now had 1,615 left. Apart from the region of Corinthia and the autonomous Mani Peninsula, the Venetians counted only 86,468 inhabitants in 1688, out of an estimated pre-war population of 200,000.[6][7]
    So basically, 60% of the population of this Peninsula left this region. And this is one of many times that the population of this region has been wiped out. I want to bring at your attention the migration of the Albanians during the XIV century and latter. The region during the migration of the Albanians is described as an empty land. But in this last migration, we have precise data from Venetians.

    Who settled later in the region:
    Economic and social development
    To restore the province, settlers were encouraged to immigrate from the other Greek lands with the lure of considerable land grants, chiefly from Attica but also from other parts of Central Greece, especially the areas that suffered during the war. 2,000 Cretans, and also Catholic Chians, Venetian citizens from the Ionian Islands and even some Bulgarians answered this call. In addition, mention is made of 1,317 Muslim families that remained behind, converted to Christianity and were given lands or enterprises as concessions. As a result of these policies, the population recovered rapidly: apart from Mani, the Venetian registers record 97,118 inhabitants in 1691, 116,000 a year later and 176,844 by 1700. Due to the relative privileges granted the urban population, the period was also marked by an influx of the agrarian population to the cities.[9][12][13]
    As a conclusion, these 241 individuals tested by the authors of the study, are not the descendants of the people who lived in the region during the slavic migration. The today population of the Peninsula of Peloponnese has nothing to do with the people who lived in this region roughly 1400 years ago and for this reason can not be tested in order to prove the veracity or not of the events happened 1.400 years ago.
    So this study is a pseudo-scientific paper.

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    EDIT
    Here are the sources of the Wiki:
    6) Vakalopoulos (1973), pp. 48–49
    7) Vakalopoulos (1975), pp. 206–207

    Vakalopoulos, Apostolos E. (1973). Ιστορία του νέου ελληνισμού, Τόμος Δ′: Τουρκοκρατία 1669–1812 – Η οικονομική άνοδος και ο φωτισμός του γένους (Έκδοση Β′) [History of modern Hellenism, Volume IV: Turkish rule 1669–1812 – Economic upturn and enlightenment of the nation (2nd Edition)] (in Greek). Thessaloniki: Emm. Sfakianakis & Sons.
    Vakalopoulos, Apostolos E. (1975). "Πελοπόννησος: Η τελευταία περίοδος βενετικής κυριαρχίας (1685–1715)" [Peloponnese: The last period of Venetian rule (1685–1715)]. Ιστορία του Ελληνικού Έθνους, Τόμος ΙΑ′: Ο ελληνισμός υπό ξένη κυριαρχία, 1669–1821 [History of the Greek Nation, Volume XI: Hellenism under foreign rule, 1669–1821] (in Greek). Athens: Ekdotiki Athinon. pp. 206–209.
    As you can see, the source is an Greek scholar.

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    I am not here to question or support the results of this study. I am however here to see your justification for calling it pseudoscience. In the course of writing my graduate thesis I was familiarized, a little, with how studies are designed and what constitutes evidence. This is a peer reviewed study. Your conclusions wouldn't stand up even in the basest round of review. For example:

    "From the 6 century AD until at least in the XVII century - WAY too vague -, the Peninsula of Peloponnese has been emptied and repopulated different times - even more vague -. The last time, in my knowledge - inappropriate in scientific writing to state facts which could be construed as "your opinion" - was during the Morean War in 1684–99, between Ottoman Empire ans Venetians." - Here say, you would need concrete evidence to support a MASS repopulation either in a) genetic evidence, b) records of taxation, baptism etc.

    So basically, 60% of the population of this Peninsula left this region. And this is one of many times that the population of this region has been wiped out (once again here say). I want to bring at your attention the migration of the Albanians during the XIV cantury and latter. The region is described as an empty land. But in this last migration, we have precise data from Ventians.

    - You have one set of records. That is all. To take this as gospel and discount genetic evidence and any other accounts accounts clearly displays a pre-existing bias which would result in a papers dismissal in the first round of peer review. You could change this by adding"according to Vakopolous 1973, 1975...". Calling a genetic study using identical by descent variation to construct genetic maps pseudoscience by citing a single author piece of work from 40 years ago would have you laughed out of the building.

    Also, the evidence you cite doesn't support your conclusions. Athough the Peloponnese was bolstered by Greeks from other regions, as well as some other Balkans, the study concludes there is enough identical by descent variation, which are DNA sequences similar in two groups which would be EXTREMELY unlikely to exist due to random mutation. As such, even if the population has changed autosomally, there is still enough IBD similarity to show a connection.

    lol pseudoscience..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Journeyman26 View Post
    I am not here to question or support the results of this study. I am however here to see your justification for calling it pseudoscience. In the course of writing my graduate thesis I was familiarized, a little, with how studies are designed and what constitutes evidence. This is a peer reviewed study. Your conclusions wouldn't stand up even in the basest round of review. For example:

    "From the 6 century AD until at least in the XVII century - WAY too vague -, the Peninsula of Peloponnese has been emptied and repopulated different times - even more vague -. The last time, in my knowledge - inappropriate in scientific writing to state facts which could be construed as "your opinion" - was during the Morean War in 1684–99, between Ottoman Empire ans Venetians." - Here say, you would need concrete evidence to support a MASS repopulation either in a) genetic evidence, b) records of taxation, baptism etc.

    So basically, 60% of the population of this Peninsula left this region. And this is one of many times that the population of this region has been wiped out (once again here say). I want to bring at your attention the migration of the Albanians during the XIV cantury and latter. The region is described as an empty land. But in this last migration, we have precise data from Ventians.

    - You have one set of records. That is all. To take this as gospel and discount genetic evidence and any other accounts accounts clearly displays a pre-existing bias which would result in a papers dismissal in the first round of peer review. You could change this by adding"according to Vakopolous 1973, 1975...". Calling a genetic study using identical by descent variation to construct genetic maps pseudoscience by citing a single author piece of work from 40 years ago would have you laughed out of the building.

    Also, the evidence you cite doesn't support your conclusions. Athough the Peloponnese was bolstered by Greeks from other regions, as well as some other Balkans, the study concludes there is enough identical by descent variation, which are DNA sequences similar in two groups which would be EXTREMELY unlikely to exist due to random mutation. As such, even if the population has changed autosomally, there is still enough IBD similarity to show a connection.

    lol pseudoscience..
    Can you prove that individuals tested are descendants of the people who lived in Peloponnese in sixth century AD? This is the question.
    Otherwise, is like testing the descendants of the Irish emigrants in USA for example in order to prove historical events that happened in American Continent before the discover of this continent by Christopher Colombus.
    Last edited by Laberia; 11-08-2017 at 10:00 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Laberia View Post
    And as long as we can read the study in a scientific Journal, without criticism from any other study, it is considered undeniable
    Subjects and methods

    Here we have the first contradiction. The task of the authors is to prove the veracity or not of events happened in the first millenia AD, not in the second millenia AD.
    Are these 241 individuals tested by the authors, descendants of the people who lived in the Peninsula during the events described by medieval chronicles, Fallmerayer and other authors?
    I think no.
    And you are right, they are not descendants of the people that according to this only one medieval chronicle they were, (that was later used as the only source by "Fallmereyer and others"). If they were, the study would show them being genetically related either to Balkan slavs, (or even more to central European slavs, as that is where slavs in greece came from), or to Anatolian population. But as all studies, it shows relations to Greek descendant populations in south Italy first first, and limited relations to these populations.

    How can someone be genetically closer to South italy, and have historical ancestry from Slovakia? Doesn't even make sense, you don't need to have even basic genetic knowledge

    From the 6 century AD until at least in the XVII century, the Peninsula of Peloponnese has been emptied and repopulated different times. The last time, in my knowledge was during the Morean War in 1684–99, between Ottoman Empire ans Venetians.
    it has never been emptyfied, only one chronicle claims such a thing which is from 9th century and talks about 6th century, with all sources and archaeological data of 6th century debunking it

    So basically, 60% of the population of this Peninsula left this region. And this is one of many times that the population of this region has been wiped out. I want to bring at your attention the migration of the Albanians during the XIV century and latter. The region during the migration of the Albanians is described as an empty land. But in this last migration, we have precise data from Venetians.
    As we already said, the population of the region has never been wiped out. There is only one source claiming such a thing, which as we already said it's from 9th century, and talks about 6th century, with everything from 6th century debunking it
    The albanians you are talking about were settled in a tiny part of the region near central Greece, making up only the 10-20% of the population, and no source of this era makes clear that peloponnese was an empty land.

    As a conclusion, these 241 individuals tested by the authors of the study, are not the descendants of the people who lived in the region during the slavic migration. The today population of the Peninsula of Peloponnese has nothing to do with the people who lived in this region roughly 1400 years ago and for this reason can not be tested in order to prove the veracity or not of the events happened 1.400 years ago.
    So this study is a pseudo-scientific paper.
    first of all you posted zero genetic evidence, but historiography, which can't be used to debunk genetic data, the opposite, genetic data will be used to either debunk or to confirm historiography, as it's the only objective source, so you already fail against the study.
    Second, your own source does not support your claims, if you read it more carefully, more than half of its popuation in 1700 was native, with the rest being partially descendants of catholic chians, ionian islanders (many of whom already had peloponnesian ancestry themselves etc.)

    This study would be considered "pseudo-scientific" if it would not be approved by the journal for publication, or if another later study debunked its results. Till then, it's an undeniable fact

    Here we use 2.5 million single-nucleotide polymorphisms to investigate the genetic structure of Peloponnesean populations in a sample of 241 individuals originating from all districts of the peninsula and to examine predictions of the theory of replacement of the medieval Peloponneseans by Slavs.
    that's what the particular study examines, if modern peloponnesians are genetically slavs, which would support your theory. And it proves that they are not. But for any sane person, no genetic study is required to conclude that Peloponnesians and any Greek population is not slavic, you only need a good pair of eyes, and a trip to peloponnese to see how the people look like, and see if they are anything like Slavs
    Quote Originally Posted by Laberia View Post
    Can you prove that individuals tested are descendants of the people who lived in Peloponnese in sixth century AD? This is the question.
    Otherwise, is like testing the descendants of the Irish emigrants in USA for example in order to prove historical events that happened in American Continent before the discover of this continent by Christopher Colombus.
    where do you see any similarity, to begin with
    Last edited by brennus dux gallorum; 11-09-2017 at 08:01 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by brennus dux gallorum View Post
    And as long as we can read the study in a scientific Journal, without criticism from any other study, it is considered undeniable

    And you are right, they are not descendants of the people that according to this only one medieval chronicle they were, (that was later used as the only source by "Fallmereyer and others"). If they were, the study would show them being genetically related either to Balkan slavs, (or even more to central European slavs, as that is where slavs in greece came from), or to Anatolian population. But as all studies, it shows relations to Greek descendant populations in south Italy first first, and limited relations to these populations.

    How can someone be genetically closer to South italy, and have historical ancestry from Slovakia? Doesn't even make sense, you don't need to have even basic genetic knowledge


    it has never been emptyfied, only one chronicle claims such a thing which is from 9th century and talks about 6th century, with all sources and archaeological data of 6th century debunking it


    As we already said, the population of the region has never been wiped out. There is only one source claiming such a thing, which as we already said it's from 9th century, and talks about 6th century, with everything from 6th century debunking it
    The albanians you are talking about were settled in a tiny part of the region near central Greece, making up only the 10-20% of the population, and no source of this era makes clear that peloponnese was an empty land.


    first of all you posted zero genetic evidence, but historiography, which can't be used to debunk genetic data, the opposite, genetic data will be used to either debunk or to confirm historiography, as it's the only objective source, so you already fail against the study.
    Second, your own source does not support your claims, if you read it more carefully, more than half of its popuation in 1700 was native, with the rest being partially descendants of catholic chians, ionian islanders (many of whom already had peloponnesian ancestry themselves etc.)

    This study would be considered "pseudo-scientific" if it would not be approved by the journal for publication, or if another later study debunked its results. Till then, it's an undeniable fact



    that's what the particular study examines, if modern peloponnesians are genetically slavs, which would support your theory. And it proves that they are not. But for any sane person, no genetic study is required to conclude that Peloponnesians and any Greek population is not slavic, you only need a good pair of eyes, and a trip to peloponnese to see how the people look like, and see if they are anything like Slavs
    Your post can be considered as an failed attempt to make people laugh here.
    I want to ask you about this:
    Second, your own source does not support your claims, if you read it more carefully, more than half of its popuation in 1700 was native, with the rest being partially descendants of catholic chians, ionian islanders (many of whom already had peloponnesian ancestry themselves etc.)
    I can find this in the page of Wiki. Can you show us where is written that in the year 1700, more than half of population was native?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Laberia View Post
    Your post can be considered as an failed attempt to make people laugh here.
    I want to ask you about this:
    yet all TA users would laugh at your post, not mine. You use distorted and subjective material and try to debunk a published genetic study. What else to say
    I can find this in the page of Wiki. Can you show us where is written that in the year 1700, more than half of population was native?
    To restore the province, settlers were encouraged to immigrate from the other Greek lands with the lure of considerable land grants, chiefly from Attica but also from other parts of Central Greece, especially the areas that suffered during the war. 2,000 Cretans, and also Catholic Chians, Venetian citizens from the Ionian Islands and even some Bulgarians answered this call. In addition, mention is made of 1,317 Muslim families that remained behind, converted to Christianity and were given lands or enterprises as concessions. As a result of these policies, the population recovered rapidly: apart from Mani, the Venetian registers record 97,118 inhabitants in 1691, 116,000 a year later and 176,844 by 1700. Due to the relative privileges granted the urban population, the period was also marked by an influx of the agrarian population to the cities
    basic maths

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    Quote Originally Posted by brennus dux gallorum View Post
    yet all TA users would laugh at your post, not mine. You use distorted and subjective material and try to debunk a published genetic study. What else to say




    basic maths
    Yeah, basic maths show that Venetians settled people from other regions, islanders, Bulgars. This is what the quote of Wiki tell us. I don't see mentioned in the page, more than half of its popuation in 1700 was native.
    Try to be serious.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Laberia View Post
    Yeah, basic maths show that Venetians settled people from other regions, islanders, Bulgars. This is what the quote of Wiki tell us.
    to begin with, it says venetian citizens from ionian islands (most of venetian citizens in the ionian islands were Greek), and "some Bulgars", along with catholic chians. So I guess the "some Bulgars" along with medieval slavs are responsible for this 1-15% slavic admixture that the study found among peloponnesians (lower than slavic admxiture in the area you live), and probably a part of ionian islanders and chian immigrants with non-Greek ancestry brought some north italian admixture, probably equal to slavic.

    the fact that 70%-95% of Peloponnesian ancestry remains Greek, as the study proves, is the only that makes sense

    I don't see mentioned in the page, more than half of its popuation in 1700 was native.
    Try to be serious.
    Since the page is talking about immigrations after the venetian dominance, there was a native population before 1691 (97,000) later partially increased by immigrations to 176,000. Try to be more intelligent.

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    Peloponnesians are genetically clustered with Sicilians -- lol at Slavs being like South Italians. Or perhaps unable to decipher genetic papers appropriately.
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