Iranian survivors of Turkic invasions in pre-Xinjiang

[ButlerKing]

Tashkurgan is a Turkic name given to an abandoned fort of settled Sakas. Sariqol is exactly Turkic.



I never mentioned policies of Turkish republic. Try again.

Here is a map of Greater Iran, as you can see they include that small portion of Southwest Xinjiang which is Iranic. Neither Uyghurs or Turkic ever populated that region. The Uyghurs never even existed in that area until the early 20th century (1940's ).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Iran


"The Tashkurgan Tajik Autonomous County regions of China harbored a Persian population and culture.[89] Chinese Tashkurgan Tajik Autonomous County was always counted as a part of the Iranian cultural & linguistic continent with Kashgar, Yarkand, Hotan, and Turpan bound to the Iranian history.[90] "

[Pennywise]

Their paternal line is Kurdish, they mixed with other ethnic groups, Pontic Greek, Georgian, Circassian, they were mutts. They were highly Persianized in culture and also they claimed to be descendants of the Sassanids.



They were culturally Persian the Safavids. Persians second class lol in the Safavid era lol. True the Safavid ideology still rules it.



I have nothing against Azeris actually. Azeris in the Caucasus are pro-Turkey, but Azeris in Iran are not, the majority see themselves as Iranians. I don't like Iran moving it's neo-Safavid agenda on our nations.




He is well known savage. This why Mongols and Turko-Mongols are hated in the Mideast, but he still was not as savage as Shah Ismail in which he made Baghdad into a blood bath, and made Basra into field of massacre. Gladly many Iraqi Arab Shias are waking up seeing what happened to their ancestors. Timur was seen as episodic part of the Mongol empire. Though you can provide the detail? Yazid I was an Ummayad, and the Ummayad of course will give him a nice burial. Btw Yazid I is venerated by the Yazidis, not by Sunni Arabs, who regard him as just a ruler and nothing more than that.

You talk out of your sectarian butthurtism, you are no different than those Shia sectarian maniacs. As for your claims about Safavids, they are also wrong in many ways:

it is important to realize that, in many ways, Safavid society continued Mongol and Timurid patterns and practices—ranging from its coinage to its administrative institutions. The Safavids, in fact, consciously built their legitimacy on past tradition. Just as Timurid historians had attempted to forge a connection with the Mongols, so Safavid historians made an effort to associate Shah ʿAbbās I with Timur-e Lang (r. 1370-1405) and to present him as a divinely inspired figure. Yet it is also true that the Safavids made many original contributions and their legacy survives in various ways. They unified much of Persia under a single political control, transforming an essentially tribal nomadic order into a sedentary society deriving most of its revenue from agriculture and trade.

http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/safavids

Safavids were a dynasty, like all the other dynasties in the Middle East, they were intermarried with various different dynasties, this doesn't make their idendity washed away. Eventhough the origin of their root is on dispute, they were AT LEAST mixed with Turkmens so much that the order members' mother tongue, including Shah Ismael was Turkish. Not to mention the Safavid state was purely based on various Turkmen tribes.

[Mingle]

Sari - yellow/blond, qol - arm or wing

I posted an expedition report that was conducted in 19th century. A book that mentions what people believe or 'pollution' of the language is not worthy of my time. Some Uyghurs might believe they are descendants of Tarim mummies, doesn't change the fact that they are not. Name Tashkurgan was recorded by that same expedition in 19th century, so it is not a 20th century 'concession' like the book claims. I did not say there was no Indo-European kingdom in that area, but it is not related to Sarikoli who don't even possess a written language and never did. Sarikoli who most likely came from Shugnan area in Tajikistan obviously did not know anything about the fort, and the expedition records it. Either Shugnans migrated to Tashkurgan or Sarikolis migrated to Shugnan area.

The oldest spelling of the region's name is ساريق قول which is ساريق + قول. The word for "yellow" is ساري not ساريق. It should have never been spelled ساريق in the first place if the word was off the word "yellow". If it was named after "yellow-wing", then it wouldn't be spelled with two ق's. The spelling was later changed to سريقول and is sometimes written as سريكال with the former based on the Karluk-Uyghur pronunciation and the latter on the indigenous Pamiri pronunciation. And why would they name a town "yellow-wing"? That makes no sense. It makes perfect sense for it to be named "mountain top" since the area is mountainous and they have mythology relating to the mountain. The Xinjiang University Journal volume 22 gives the Iranic etymology that I mentioned. What reputable sources give the Turkic etymology that you mentioned? I'm guessing none.

The native Pamiris have kept alive a 2000+ year old folk legend that was observed by Xuanzang 1,300 years later and then observed again by Aurel Stein another 1,300 years later. If they were immigrants, then they wouldn't know about that legend with the Han princess. You never managed to explain that. They did not come from Shughnan. If they did come from Shughnan, it would have been way back before Turks entered any part of Transoxiana.

Pamiris put special stones along with ibex horns up on their shrines. So it makes sense for Varshidi to have been named by them first. Turks don't do such a thing.

Sarikolis were not literate but they did use the name. External sources mention Varshidi far before any of them mention Tashkurgan. The name was officially made Tashukurgan but that name may have been used unofficially a little while back.

And in regards to that first link you put up. It says they're descendants of people from "Badakhshan, Wakhan, Shighnan, Hindustan, Kungut (Hunza), and Turkistan" and "The language peculiar to us is a mixture of what is spoken in all these countries." So basically what its claiming is that the Sarikolis are a mix of Turks, Burushos, Indians, and Pamiris and that their language is a mix of those as well. That's an obvious BS statement. The same page says they don't look like Central Asian Turks, and they obviously don't look like Indians either. Their language has 0 Burushaski influence and doesn't have any extra Turkic or Indic influence (if any) compared to other Pamiri groups. You might as well make the claim that all Pamiris are a mix of those groups and speak a mix of those languages.

[StonyArabia]

You talk out of your sectarian butthurtism, you are no different than those Shia sectarian maniacs. As for your claims about Safavids, they are also wrong in many ways:

No what I speak is of the truth. The Persian Shia's and their leadership are truly maniacs. However the Safavids clearly had little if any Turkic ancestry. However they seemed to be Turkized by tongue. It also seems that they originated from a Kurdish paternal ancestor. Anyways they became mixed with several other ethnic groups, like Pontic Greek, Circassian, Georgian and who knows what else. They are the ones who are maniacs and their evil legacy still bleed us to this day. The Ottomans did a good thing in crushing them, and so did the Afghans who had enough of their BS.

http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/safavids
Safavids were a dynasty, like all the other dynasties in the Middle East, they were intermarried with various different dynasties, this doesn't make their idendity washed away. Eventhough the origin of their root is on dispute, they were AT LEAST mixed with Turkmens so much that the order members' mother tongue, including Shah Ismael was Turkish. Not to mention the Safavid state was purely based on various Turkmen tribes.

The Safavid were very Persianate in both culture and traditions. Also the Qizilbash movement traces back to the Khumyrria, which was mixed Mazadiki religion with some elements of Shia and Sufi Islam. Of course they intermarried with various groups, and one of these groups were Kurds and Persians. Also the Turkmens who were just Turkized Northwest Iranian tribes, were the warriors, but the Persians were the intellectual elite in the Safavid empire. Btw in Iraq Sunni Turkmens have deep resentment and dislike of Shia Turkmens, and they speak different dialects. Also most of these so called Turkmens in Iran lack significant amount of Mongoloid admixture, and are genetically very close to Kurds, and they also spoke Azari a Northwest Iranian language before the Turkic elemetnt Not to mention the Safavids were seen as rebirth of the Sassanids whom they claimed to descent from, and this is why they also converted to Shiaism because Hussian's wife was Sharbanu the Sassandi princess, and they also claimed to descent from Musa Al-Khadim which means they have Arabian and even African roots, which they don't. Second their Shiaism was nothing like that of today, which eventually morphed into Alevism, until Shah Ismail brought a large number of Levantine and Eastern Arabians to propagate the mainstream. Nothing Turkic here at all, other than the language which they spoke, and Persian always remained the official tongue of the empire and so did the culture, well the religion was a minor Arab sect which they adopted lol.

[Yaglakar]

The oldest spelling of the region's name is ساريق قول which is ساريق + قول. The word for "yellow" is ساري not ساريق. It should have never been spelled ساريق in the first place if the word was off the word "yellow". If it was named after "yellow-wing", then it wouldn't be spelled with two ق's. The spelling was later changed to سريقول and is sometimes written as سريكال with the former based on the Karluk-Uyghur pronunciation and the latter on the indigenous Pamiri pronunciation. And why would they name a town "yellow-wing"? That makes no sense. It makes perfect sense for it to be named "mountain top" since the area is mountainous and they have mythology relating to the mountain. The Xinjiang University Journal volume 22 gives the Iranic etymology that I mentioned. What reputable sources give the Turkic etymology that you mentioned? I'm guessing none.

The native Pamiris have kept alive a 2000+ year old folk legend that was observed by Xuanzang 1,300 years later and then observed again by Aurel Stein another 1,300 years later. If they were immigrants, then they wouldn't know about that legend with the Han princess. You never managed to explain that. They did not come from Shughnan. If they did come from Shughnan, it would have been way back before Turks entered any part of Transoxiana.

Pamiris put special stones along with ibex horns up on their shrines. So it makes sense for Varshidi to have been named by them first. Turks don't do such a thing.

Sarikolis were not literate but they did use the name. External sources mention Varshidi far before any of them mention Tashkurgan. The name was officially made Tashukurgan but that name may have been used unofficially a little while back.

And in regards to that first link you put up. It says they're descendants of people from "Badakhshan, Wakhan, Shighnan, Hindustan, Kungut (Hunza), and Turkistan" and "The language peculiar to us is a mixture of what is spoken in all these countries." So basically what its claiming is that the Sarikolis are a mix of Turks, Burushos, Indians, and Pamiris and that their language is a mix of those as well. That's an obvious BS statement. The same page says they don't look like Central Asian Turks, and they obviously don't look like Indians either. Their language has 0 Burushaski influence and doesn't have any extra Turkic or Indic influence (if any) compared to other Pamiri groups. You might as well make the claim that all Pamiris are a mix of those groups and speak a mix of those languages.

Don't use straw man arguments. No one denies the ancient name of Varshidi that existed prior to Tashkurgan. But these people are not descendants of those ancient kingdoms. If you believe that a small group of people somewhere in the mountains have preserved a 2000 year old legend of Han times, you surely are pretty delusional. All toponyms around that area are of Turkic origin including Muztagh-Ata (ice-mountain father) Qaraköl (black lake) etc. Sarikol name is found in Kazakhstan and designates various regions and villages. https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A1...BE%D0%BB%D1%8C

Again what I posted was an expedition report, not a scientific publication or some travel book excerpts you are posting here. The key point is that Forsyth was told by the locals that their ancestors came from elsewhere. Aurel Stein talks of their migration from Oxus valley. People can remember migration only if it was recent. Northern Uyghurs did not remember their relocation from Mongolia as of 15th century and identified remnants of Buddhist temples built by their ancestors as a foreign element. Not even mentioning the language aspect, as Sarikoli is classified as a branch of Shugnani. Languages diverge over time, this is not the case with Sarikoli.

Sir Aurel Stein, Sand-buried ruins of Khotan: personal narrative of a journey of archaeological and geographical exploration in Chinese Turkestan [1903 ed.]

[Yaglakar]

Here is a map of Greater Iran, as you can see they include that small portion of Southwest Xinjiang which is Iranic. Neither Uyghurs or Turkic ever populated that region. The Uyghurs never even existed in that area until the early 20th century (1940's ).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Iran


"The Tashkurgan Tajik Autonomous County regions of China harbored a Persian population and culture.[89] Chinese Tashkurgan Tajik Autonomous County was always counted as a part of the Iranian cultural & linguistic continent with Kashgar, Yarkand, Hotan, and Turpan bound to the Iranian history.[90] "

Here is a map of greater Turan, as you can see it includes small portions of the world.





Yes Uyghurs did not exist in that portion of Tarim Basin except that spot includes capital of Karakhanid state and heavy settlement of Turkic peoples since 9th century and where so called Karluk languages emerged.

[Nanushka]

However the Safavids clearly had little if any Turkic ancestry. However they seemed to be Turkized by tongue. It also seems that they originated from a Kurdish paternal ancestor.

The Safavid were very Persianate in both culture and traditions. Also the Qizilbash movement traces back to the Khumyrria, which was mixed Mazadiki religion with some elements of Shia and Sufi Islam. Of course they intermarried with various groups, and one of these groups were Kurds and Persians. Also the Turkmens who were just Turkized Northwest Iranian tribes, were the warriors, but the Persians were the intellectual elite in the Safavid empire.

The Safevid were Turkmen who are by definiton islamized Oghuz. This is a historical fact and accepted by each and every historian on earth. I would definitely be interested in your evidence if you claim that they were Turkified northern Persian/iranian tribes. Culturally maybe they were affected by the persian traditions and sometimes wrote in persian as well but this is perfectly normal given the context and environment that they lived in

[Mingle]

Don't use straw man arguments. No one denies the ancient name of Varshidi that existed prior to Tashkurgan. But these people are not descendants of those ancient kingdoms.

It all comes down to this:

1. We don't have any records of any Turks complaining about even being evicted from Sarikol by Iranic people coming from modern day Badakhshan. There are no records of purges or population displacements by "Iranic migrants" against "native Turks". Surely there should be some record of Pamiris displacing Turks if such a thing happened since the county is Pamiri majority today.

2. The name Varshidi is the ancient Pamiri name of the city and it precedes Tashkurgan. Sarikol is also an Iranic name.

3. Sarikolis have an ancient legend regarding their settlement in the region. Xuanzang referred to Sarikol as the Qiepantuo Kingdom. He also saw the "princess castle". The "princess castle" is a tower today that exists and is a tale that exists among not only Pamiris but also some Kyrgyzes around that region. They told this tale to Aurel Stein. The Kyrgyz managed to give it the name Kiz Kurgan. Karluk people were totally oblivious of the legend so they wouldn't have randomly named a tower "girl tower". The tower has legendary significance to the Pamiris but not to the Karluks.

If you believe that a small group of people somewhere in the mountains have preserved a 2000 year old legend of Han times, you surely are pretty delusional.

They preserved it alright. I mentioned that the same tale was told to both Xuanzang and Aurel Stein. Though the tale became a bit distorted after a while, they ended up thinking that the princess was the daughter of Persian King Naushirwan. The only people that know about the tale are Kyrgyzes and Pamiris. And Kyrgyzes are clearly not native to the area.

All toponyms around that area are of Turkic origin including Muztagh-Ata (ice-mountain father) Qaraköl (black lake) etc.

Qaraköl was likely named by Kyrgyz nomads in the area. Kyrgyz nomads (recent migrants from the north) also have a recollection of that legend and lived around the vicinity. There is another Qaraköl in Murghob, Gorno-Badakhshan that was named by Kyrgyz nomads. And Kyrgyzes definitely aren't native to Gorno-Badakhshan.

Muztagh-Ata has an Iranic name Pir-Yakh. Pir means "monk" in Iranic and yakh means "cold" in Iranic. So the word is in reference to pirs that lived in a very cold place. So an alternative pre-existing Iranic name exists for the same area.

Sarikol name is found in Kazakhstan and designates various regions and villages. https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A1...BE%D0%BB%D1%8C

One/some of the villages that named Sarykol were named after a lake in the Tarangul district of the North Kazakhstan Oblast.. It likely means "yellow lake" like how Qaraköl means "black lake". Seems to make more sense than the sourceless "yellow wing" to me at least.

ساريق قول doesn't make sense because there are two ق's. It doesn't fit your proposed etymology. Furthermore, there are zero sources that Sarikol is of Turkic origin. Its most likely just the Karluk pronunciation of the native name based on its spelling. It was only respelled ساريقول after the spelling reform in the mid 20th century.

I already gave you a source regarding the Iranic origin of the name Sarikol: Xinjiang University Journal Volume 22

Here is a another source: The Journal of the Royal Geographical Society Volume 42

I'm still waiting for a source regarding the Turkic origin of Sarikol

Again what I posted was an expedition report, not a scientific publication or some travel book excerpts you are posting here. The key point is that Forsyth was told by the locals that their ancestors came from elsewhere. Aurel Stein talks of their migration from Oxus valley. People can remember migration only if it was recent. Northern Uyghurs did not remember their relocation from Mongolia as of 15th century and identified remnants of Buddhist temples built by their ancestors as a foreign element.

Pamiris (Ismaili Muslims) had a violent relationship with radical Sunni Turkics of ex-Soviet Central Asia, so some of them fled them to Badakhshan. Kyrgyz raiders also went as far as Hunza (in Gilgit-Baltistan) and tried plundering their towns. There are still a tiny minority of Kyrgyzes living in Gilgit-Baltistan to this day. The Bukhara Khanate extended up until Gorno-Badakhshan. Uzbeks there forcibly converted Pamiris (Ismailis) to Sunnism. They are responsible for imposing Persian on the Vanji people and making their language extinct. They also forced Yazgulamis to convert to Sunnism but they managed to retain their language. Some Pamiris were also sold into sex slavery by Uzbeks.

Not even mentioning the language aspect, as Sarikoli is classified as a branch of Shugnani. Languages diverge over time, this is not the case with Sarikoli.

Sarikoli belongs to one of two main varieties of North Pamiri. The two varieties are 'Yazghulami-related' and 'Shughni-related'. Sarikoli belongs to the latter category. It is not a dialect of Shughnani but belongs to the same branch of North Pamiri languages. It borders Badakhshan so it makes sense for it to be related to it.

By your logic, we could say that Uyghur-Karluks are from Uzbekistan since you are making this claim solely based off of language. Of course, saying that Uyghur-Karluks are from Uzbekistan is false. And if we go along with the claim that Sarikolis are from Shughnan (they might be if we go back to ancient times), they were still there before Turks.

The Pashto dialect of Quetta is closely related to that in Kandahar. That doesn't mean that Quetta Pashtuns are recent migrants from Kandahar.

Sir Aurel Stein, Sand-buried ruins of Khotan: personal narrative of a journey of archaeological and geographical exploration in Chinese Turkestan [1903 ed.]

That page is from Sand-Buried Ruins of Khotan and in a chapter called "Through Hunza" where it is specifically talking about Ghulmit (Gulmit) in the Hunza Valley of Gilgit Baltistan. It is not talking about Sarikol. The region was/is originally Burusho but some Pamiri migrants from Wakhan and Sarikol settled there. That page is saying that Wakhi and Sarikoli people in Gulmit continued to marry people from Wakhan and Sarikol after they migrated to Gulmit.

Some excerpts from that chapter:

"At Ghulmit that part of the Hunza Valley is entered which is known as Little Guhyal. It takes this name from its inhabitants, Wakhi imigrants from Wakhan or Guhyal on the Oxus"

"The Wakhis of Little Guhyal, numbering altogether about a thousand souls, are a fine stalwart type, taller than the men of Hunza and usually showing clear-cut and intelligent features."

[Mingle]

Yes Uyghurs did not exist in that portion of Tarim Basin except that spot includes capital of Karakhanid state and heavy settlement of Turkic peoples since 9th century and where so called Karluk languages emerged.

Sarikol was never the capital of the Karakhanid Khanate. It was never either heavily settled by Turks. Some regions close to Sarikol were settled by Turks, but Badakhshan and Varshidi never were.

Karluk languages emerged in Semirechye (Kyrgyzstan and the adjoining part of Kazakhstan south of Lake Balkhash).

[Yaglakar]

Sarikol was never the capital of the Karakhanid Khanate. It was never either heavily settled by Turks. Some regions close to Sarikol were settled by Turks, but Badakhshan and Varshidi never were.

Karluk languages emerged in Semirechye (Kyrgyzstan and the adjoining part of Kazakhstan south of Lake Balkhash).

Clown, you have nothing to do with these people. They don't practice Bacha Bazi. They could be ingenious but the information is lacking. There are conflicting reports from 19th century. Some claim they came from Shugnan others that Sarikolis migrated to Shugnan. You have some sort of Iranic/Indo-Aryan agenda that you have to prove no matter what that they are indigenous.

The map includes Kashgar if you haven't noticed. There is no such thing as a Karluk language. Scholars coined it so so the layman like yourself assimilates information better. The Karakhanid literally language emerged around that spot - the Türki or Hakhani language.