Ragnarok. Did it happen? Will it happen?

[HawkR]

Ragnarok, the end of the gods and MIdgard as we know it today. Thor will kill the Midgardworm and die after being worn out. Odin will be killed by Fenris and Vidar will kill Fenris. There'll be the Fimbul winter and a new and peaceful world will rise.

First of all there hasn't been a Fimbul winter, and there sure as Nivlheim ain't a peacefull world. But do you belive that Ragnarok has happened?


And if not; Will it happen? Are we humans able to have a peaceful world? Will we learn from Ragnarok as we haven't learned from anything else? I think not! Ragnarok might happen, but not with the prescribed consequences.

[Psychonaut]

Great topic! I'm really interested to see what unfolds here.

I'm of several minds on this one, but whatever the case, I don't think that a literal Ragnarök as described in Völuspá is in the cards. I'm of the opinion that there is a definite difference between historical time and mythic time. In When the Norns Have Spoken, Winterbourne says (p. 48):

Mythical time is differentiated from historical time in that for the former there can be no absolute past, no past, that is to say, that is not some-one's past, that is for the mythology and for some gods. Indeed, time as history may erupt into the world as a result of some event in the life of a god--or more often, in the death of a god; just as death is brought into the world when Seth murders Osiris, so the world becomes subject to historical time when Horus takes the place of Osiris. "The atrocity committed by Seth brought evil into the world. This is evidently the point at which cosmogonic primeval time turns into historical time"--a pattern that we see repeated in Norse mythology at the death of Baldr. In Ragnarok, we see the world's end as Spengler was to describe it--as "completion of an inwardly necessary evolution."

That being said, there are a few ways in which I generally apply the Ragnarök metaphor. First and foremost, I think we all know that one day the world (the planet and later on, the universe) will die. The second law of thermodynamics will ensure that the ordered system of the cosmos that the Gods maintain will fall to the entropic might of the Giants. Alternatively, we can look at the "death" of the faith of our forefathers through the mythic lens as a Ragnarök. Or, we could view the current crisis (Crowley's New Aeon) as a Ragnarök. Since Ragnarök is the end of a cycle, there are various cycles in both the past and present that we can, I think, apply the metaphor to.

[Heimmacht]

It happens all the time. And for the question 'will humans ever have a peacefull world' No.

[HawkR]

The second law of thermodynamics will ensure that the ordered system of the cosmos that the Gods maintain will fall to the entropic might of the Giants.

Yeah, as witten. Trolls too actually

Alternatively, we can look at the "death" of the faith of our forefathers through the mythic lens as a Ragnarök.

Yeah, but then there's the question, when have "we" lost faith? There will allways be someone who believes, but is this a majority or a minority case? (If you understand)

[Psychonaut]

Yeah, but then there's the question, when have "we" lost faith? There will allways be someone who believes, but is this a majority or a minority case? (If you understand)

I think for that example it more of looking at our ancestors as a whole rather than at peculiar individuals. Sure, there are areas where particular pagan folk traditions remain in practice, but the actual worship of the Gods as such (not in the guise of saints or wights) ended with the conversion.

[HawkR]

I think for that example it more of looking at our ancestors as a whole rather than at peculiar individuals. Sure, there are areas where particular pagan folk traditions remain in practice, but the actual worship of the Gods as such (not in the guise of saints or wights) ended with the conversion.

Well, yes, some of the traditions and ways of doing them are lost/no longer axcepted. When it comes to bloting, we no longer sacrifice a pig or at the worst, a family member. And no, I can't say I know everything about norse that is, but I have a desire to know it all.

[YggsVinr]

Since Ragnarök is the end of a cycle, there are various cycles in both the past and present that we can, I think, apply the metaphor to.

The above is similar to my own opinion, at least where the case of cycles are concerned. I think, despite the details of a fimbulwinter, kinsmen fighting kinsmen and so on, that the Ragnarok myth isn't one that should be looked at in the same sense that the Christian apocalypse is often considered. In the case of the Christian apocalypse there is a series of events that are often considered to undoubtedly herald the judgement. The details of Ragnarok should not be overexaggerated, or twisted, or taken too seriously. I think there is much to suggest that the lesson in the Ragnarok myth is the understanding of cycles. Norse mythology differs from most others in that the gods are not necessarily eternal, they, too, give way to the cycles of time. The key points to be understood in Ragnarok should be that the Aesir and Vanir all die in an apocalyptic battle. The event is then followed by a rebirth in which the earth is inherited by the sons of Odin and Thor, and two humans who managed to hide, consequently named Lif and Lifthrasir who are evidently symbolic of the continuance of life after each cyclical "death".

Time and again we see myths all over the world of gods (typically fertility gods) who die a violent death and then are reborn. Should Ragnarok been considered differently? Are we paying to much attention to the apocalyptic aspect of it? I, personally, think so. I don't think we should see it as an exact prediction of the future to come, of a death of faith or even an event that should concern faith or spirituality, but a representative of the life cycle, which is suggested in Balder's return from Hel, as well as the survival of the sons of the gods and of men. What can that represent but the rebirth of life after its death, or the symbol of new generations rising after the old one has passed away. Perhaps its apocalyptic nature is but a way to demonstrate the resilience of life itself; that after each fimbulwinter comes a new spring, after the death of every man is born a son, and the death of a god does not signal the death of all life whether divine or otherwise.

[Octothorpe]

I voted 'other,' as I see the gods and other powers as living outside of linear time. Ragnarok happened, Ragnarok is happening, Ragnarok will happen in the 'future.' We're bound by linear time, so we must have past, present and future. Powers greater than ourselves are (or may be) unbound, and timeless. Thor is always fishing for the Midgard Serpent; Freya is always bargaining for the Brisingamen: and so Ragnarok is always present, and always meaningful to our lives.

[Gooding]

I voted that Ragnarok will happen in the future, but not in the way described.I'm of the opinion that with the destruction of one world, a new world is born.The gods and goddesses themselves are subject to the decree of the Norns, but to see them as anthropomorphic is,at this time, I believe quite naive.With the introduction of Christianity, the old gods, I believe, had to go into hiding for a time.Now, they begin to reemerge with the freedoms that come with a secular society and an unconscious awareness that the Folk might have always had of these Holy Powers.Ragnarok will occur when the Sun finally swallows the Earth as it supernovas in future millenia..That could be seen in the analogy of Surt setting all things afire.The Aesir,Vanir and Folk may all die together as the land itself becomes devastated both by climate change and human desperation.If we are able to colonize other planets, the Folk may disperse,taking their gods and goddesses, in altered forms and no doubt with different names,with them.New worlds might mean new landvaettir and elemental fae to subsume in new religions based on the old.With the loss of a world, or a universe, brings an end of one system and the birth of another.Universal peace?With any sentient species?No.That is quite impossible.Conflict brings growth and evolution is a law as immutable as extinction.So would begin a new cycle with a new Folk.These are my thoughts on the matter.

[Maelstrom]

Here is my opinion on the matter:

I do not believe it beneficial to debate and analyse Ragnarok or other cycles/ages. For the Hindu's, Kali Yuga roughly equates with the Germanic Ragnarok.

I think that the Hindu's have a good way of "dealing" with the cycles and ages. There is no point freaking out or trying to prevent something from happening. In fact, there's no real point questioning whether or not we are currently in a certain age or time.

Ragnarok will certainly be a spiritual Dark Age, just like the hindu Kali Yuga. What is important is that we stay true and hold firm to our beliefs and traditions.