R1a in Germany (regional frequencies)

[Dibran]

Not really, because these samples are from descendants of pre-1939 inhabitants of the area.

Today, after the influx of East European Germans, R1a frequencies are probably even higher.

BTW, Sorben (Sorbs) are an indigenous Slavic minority in Lusatia (Saxony & Brandenburg).

It would be interesting to see if/where ancestral M458 comes up(Now that we have aDNA for Z280). If M458 turns out to be native since Corded settlements in Poland, then it would have been carried by both East Germanic and Slavic tribes. So it would be Germano-Slavic.

If the origin is around Morava(taking account R1a diversity susupected there) then it could be a result of some east germanic tribes that swept through there. Were the Crimean Goths that survived up until WW2 completely assimilated? I would imagine there are some that still recall ancestry.

It would be interesting to test any people of Crimean Goth descent to see what Haplogroups pop up. Of course they have been in Ukraine so long it could have been integrated.

Assuming M458 urheimat is in Poland/East Germany, then Eupedia's theoretical classification(Germano-Slavic) would be correct.

[Peterski]

Most of Austrians have ancient Slovenian ancestry. All Austrians are partially Slavic except for Tyrol and perhaps Upper Austria. This map illustrates the Early Medieval extent of ethnic Slovene settlement, compared to modern borders of Slovenia:

http://www.gis.si/egw/ZSS_T04_P02/img/karta2.jpg



In the Early Middle Ages, most of Austria was a Slavic-inhabited territory:



Slavic toponyms correlate with Slavic Y-DNA in Austria. For example, East Tyrol can be divided into two regions - northern with presence of Slavic toponyms, and southern with presence of Romance toponyms. Germanic toponyms are present throughout the entire province, but Romance and Slavic toponyms are only limited to respectively southern and northern parts of East Tyrol:

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2012/07...e-in-east.html

"East Tyrol was divided into two regions of former Romance (Puster, Gail, and Villgraten valley; region A) and Slavic (Isel, lower Drau, Defereggen, Virgen, and Kals valley; region B) main settlement (Fig. 2)."

Interestingly, areas of East Tyrol with Romance toponyms correlate with certain Y-DNA haplogroups among inhabitants, and areas with Slavic toponyms correlate with other haplogroups:

"E-M78, R-M17 and R-S116* Y chromosomes were exclusively found in region B [Slavic] whereas samples assigned to R-M412/S167*, R-U106/S21, and R-U152/S28 reached higher frequencies in region A [Romance] (Fig. 3, Table S7). When attributing the samples to the fathers' and grandfathers' places of birth/residence, as reported by the participants, practically identical patterns were obtained for most of the haplogroups (Fig. 3). Y chromosomes belonging to haplogroups G-P15, I-M253, and J-M304 showed much lower regionalization in their frequencies (Fig. 3) at all three generation levels."

So not only R-M17, but also E-M78 and S-116* correlate with Slavic toponyms in East Tyrol.

Interestingly, two samples of Medieval Slavic Y-DNA from the island of Usedom from the 2010 study by Janine Freder, include one R1a1a1g (M458) and one E1b1b (M215):

http://www.diss.fu-berlin.de/diss/re...019471?lang=en

Also:

"Haplogroup R-M412/S167* was found at low frequencies in the combined East Tyrolean sample. However, the R-M412/S167* chromosomes were sorted by the subdivision of the study area and reached in region A levels of ~14% whereas their frequency in region B was well below the 5% threshold. At the probands and fathers level of analysis region A [Romance] featured approximately fourfold higher frequencies of these chromosomes than region B [Slavic]. This ratio changed to about nine when placing the samples at the grandfathers' places of birth/residence. These contrasts remained statistically significant after correcting for multiple comparisons [22] at the fathers and grandfathers analysis level."

And:

"Haplogroup R-M17 [R1a] was completely absent in the East Tyrolean sub-sample from region A [formerly Romance area], but made up to 16% in region B [formerly Slavic area]. This result remained practically unchanged when assigning the probands to their respective fathers' or grandfathers' places of birth/residence (Fig. 3)."

See the map below:

Region B - ca. 16% frequency of R1a, and has Slavic toponyms
Region A - no Slavic toponyms, and no more than a few of R1a



Slavic placenames in Austria (high concentration around Graz, in which % of R1a is 42.9%):

http://imgfrm.index.hu/imgfrm/8/7/4/...0008378741.jpg

[Artek]

It would be interesting to see if/where ancestral M458 comes up(Now that we have aDNA for Z280). If M458 turns out to be native since Corded settlements in Poland, then it would have been carried by both East Germanic and Slavic tribes. So it would be Germano-Slavic.

M458 (PF6155) descends from Corded Ware, alongside with Z280, Z284(Y2395), L664(CTS4385), Y17491 and many others, some yet unindentified. But more than 95% of M458 belongs to very shallow clustered L260 and CTS11962 that gained the upper hand due to the formation of Proto-Slavic people and expanded rapidly.

So even finding any rare M458 among Goths or Longobards (what is quite likely, anyway) isn't going to change the fact that unbelievably chuge chunk of popular M458 clades expanded with Slavs. All in all, revealed part of aDNA from Iron Age Poland doesn't show a single R1a result older than medieval.

If the origin is around Morava(taking account R1a diversity susupected there) then it could be a result of some east germanic tribes that swept through there.

Diversity isn't a sign of origin, because it doesn't take many complicated factors into account, like various demographic shifts, environment and effective population size.
Densely populated areas could've preserved more different haplotypes through history than a sparsely populated area with 2-3 people per square km. That's why we have earlier divergent R1a in places like Italy or Asia Minor but not in Russia or the Steppes.

Were the Crimean Goths that survived up until WW2 completely assimilated? I would imagine there are some that still recall ancestry.

It would be interesting to test any people of Crimean Goth descent to see what Haplogroups pop up. Of course they have been in Ukraine so long it could have been integrated.

They were largely integrated somewhere by the XVI-XVII century. Some less convincing sources claim XIX or even as recent as XX century for a final diminish of Crimean Gothic language but I give them no credit since they were not investigated further. Given the population exchange in Crimea, big part Gothic descendants may be present among Crimean Tatars expelled to Turkey.

Assuming M458 urheimat is in Poland/East Germany, then Eupedia's theoretical classification(Germano-Slavic) would be correct.

I find it not convincing for the reasons explained above.

[Dibran]

M458 (PF6155) descends from Corded Ware, alongside with Z280, Z284(Y2395), L664(CTS4385), Y17491 and many others, some yet unindentified. But more than 95% of M458 belongs to very shallow clustered L260 and CTS11962 that gained the upper hand due to the formation of Proto-Slavic people and expanded rapidly.

So even finding any rare M458 among Goths or Longobards (what is quite likely, anyway) isn't going to change the fact that unbelievably chuge chunk of popular M458 clades expanded with Slavs. All in all, revealed part of aDNA from Iron Age Poland doesn't show a single R1a result older than medieval.


Diversity isn't a sign of origin, because it doesn't take many complicated factors into account, like various demographic shifts, environment and effective population size.
Densely populated areas could've preserved more different haplotypes through history than a sparsely populated area with 2-3 people per square km. That's why we have earlier divergent R1a in places like Italy or Asia Minor but not in Russia or the Steppes.


They were largely integrated somewhere by the XVI-XVII century. Some less convincing sources claim XIX or even as recent as XX century for a final diminish of Crimean Gothic language but I give them no credit since they were not investigated further. Given the population exchange in Crimea, big part Gothic descendants may be present among Crimean Tatars expelled to Turkey.


I find it not convincing for the reasons explained above.

You may well be correct. However, we have no aDNA for M458 yet. As such, most conclusions are being formed on modern data, which doesn't take all factors into account, as you beautifully illustrated with regards to diversification=/=origin.

I do not doubt it expanded largely with Slavs. I doubt the narrative it only spread with Slavs. Until there is aDNA of M458, all else is well educated guesswork.

[Dibran]

.............]

Dead link for me(Janine Freder paper). Per R1a group they say there is no aDNA for M458, and you say there is from a 2010 paper? How could that be ignored?

Then again 12th-13th century is post-great migration, and not very telling. I suppose we need aDNA pre-migration for M458, to see exactly where it was before it took part in the ethnogenesis of Slavs.

[Bobby Martnen]

ARE GER1MANS REALLY GERMANI1C?

[Peterski]

Dead link for me

It works for me?: http://www.diss.fu-berlin.de/diss/re...019471?lang=en

Paper in PDF: http://www.diss.fu-berlin.de/diss/se...0921054?hosts=

[Dibran]

It works for me?: http://www.diss.fu-berlin.de/diss/re...019471?lang=en

Paper in PDF: http://www.diss.fu-berlin.de/diss/se...0921054?hosts=

Maybe its my computer. The second link is German though lol I don't speak/read German. If the abstract is anything to glean, thast sample is from 1128, hense post great migration. Not exactly ancient.

What I am asking for(like Z280 aDNA) are M458 basal samples that date back pre-great migration. It doesn't help to know where the basal lineage was in BC times, by looking at a 1128AD sample. As I understand we have no aDNA for basal M458, or even downstream clades pre-migration.

[Peterski]

Re-posting the map: