Zoran Zaev: We are ready to Abandon Alexander the Great

[Vojnik]

But the name Alexander is used by many people during the history. You are a slavic nation. Your DNA is irrelevant because we are talking about an ethnic group, not about the haplogroup of an individual. I don't have nothing against you, but a slav can not claim to be descendant of Alexander The Great.
There are many theories about ancient Macedonians. Some consider them as Greeks, some as Illyrians(we have our legends and medieval chronicles where he is considered an Albanian), but we have to take in consideration also the option that ancient Macedonians disappeared from history like ancient greeks and many other nations of antiquity. But in all the possible scenarios, Ancient Macedonians and Alexander The Great were not Slavs. Personally, i support every name solution of your country accepted by all parts, including Albanians and after this, your country can follow the integration in EU, NATO and this means that our region can have one less problem.

We speak a Slavic language, this is no secret and nothing to be ashamed of at all! how can we be ashamed of the fact that we helped spread Slavonic literature, culture and Christianity across eastern Europe, to the people who had no alphabet. But, genetically we haven't moved from where we currently live. So going by your logic and thought process; Singaporeans are a cup of tea drinking, jam tart eating, cricket playing British subjects. Singaporeans speak better English then half of England.

[Vojnik]

No change to the name Macedonia! EU, NATO, Greece and everyone else can go and get fucked!

[wvwvw]

Alexander was Greek only in the ancient sense of the word, Which denoted a person who belonged to the dominant culture at that time. Hellenistic culture of ancient times was the equivalent of Western culture of today.

Western culture is dominated by the English language, yet you have non anglo saxons who speak it.

The ancient Macedonians had there own distinct kingdom, and were considered barbarians by the kingdoms south of them.

Demosthenes:
"... not only no Greek, nor related to the Greeks, but not even a barbarian from any place that can be named with honors, but a pestilent knave from Macedonia, whence it was never yet possible to buy a decent slave"

Haven't you tired of bringing up Demosthenes out of context quote?

There are no explicit accusations of Macedonians as a whole of being barbarians,that assertion was made by his political opponent Demosthenes only. Given that such an assertion against Philip is shared by no one and given so many references in antiquity to his descent [Herodotos, Thucydides, Isocrates, Hesiodos, Hellanikos] in various texts any other
discussion on this question seems pointless.

Demosthenes was an Athenian orator and politician. When it was very clear to him that the power of Athens was fading away and Macedonia was the new power in the hellenic world, accused Philippos II of many things including that of being
barbarian.

This is not surprising for Demosthenes who spent his whole life advocating the superiority of Athens over the other hellenic states.

In his Third Olynthiakos, 16, Demosthenes wrote

"Is he (Philippos) not our enemy? Are not our possessions in his hands? Is he not a barbarian? Is he not anything that you choose to call him? In God's name, when we have let everything go, when we have all but put everything into his hands, shall we then inquire at large who is responsible for it all?"

There is also another reason that this accusation against Philippos on behalf of Demosthenes was more of a figure of speech than anything else.

Demosthenes's maternal grandmother was a Skythian.

In fact Aeschines (On the Embassy, 78) expressed this opinion by saying "....
KAI TAYTA, V DHMOSUENES, EK TVN NOMADVN SKYUVN TO PROS MHTROS VN GENOS", that is, "you, Demosthenes, a descendant through your mother of the nomad Skythians" as well as (Against Ctesiphon, 172) "TA D' APO THS MHTROS [DHMOSUENHS] SKYUHS, BARBAROS, ELLHNIZVN TH FVNH" that is, "and by his mother's side [Demosthenes is] a Scythian, a Greek speaking Barbarian", and earlier in that passage Aeschines accused Demothenes of being a slanderer "EJ' HS YMIN O PERIERGOS KAI SYKOFANTHS [DEMOSTHENES] GEGENHTAI". [Some authors believe that Kleovouli, mother of Demosthenes, was daughter of Gylon who settled in Crimaea and married a Scythian woman.]

Let alone the fact that Demosthenes, was bribed later by the Persians (barbarians) to write speeches against Philippos and at the same time was also accusing Philippos of bribing Athenians and various Athenians of being bribed by Philippos. Demosthenes would also look very silly since another Athenian, Isocrates, in, To Philippos,108 wrote considered Philippos an Hellen and urged him to unite all Hellenes and lead them in a war against the Barbarians.

In one of his speeches, On the Embassy 305, Demosthenes in his effort to accuse orator Aeschines of inconsistent and possibly traitorous behavior accused Aeschines of calling Philippos 'barbarian' and 'devil'. In his Third Philippic, 31, Demosthenes accused Philippos of being "he is a pestilent Macedonian, from whose country it used not to be possible to buy even a slave (i.e worker) of any value".

Accusations by Aeschines on the past and present behavior of Demosthenes such as of inflicting wounds on himself and bringing suit for malicious assault, (in Against Ctesiphon, 212), of becoming a teacher in order to extract large
amounts of money from his pupils (in Against Timarchus, 171), of taking money from his clients for writing speeches to be delivered in court and then revealing the contents of these speeches to their opponents (in On the Embassy, 165), of belittling young Alexander by claiming that he would prove incompetent and would never stir out of Macedonia (Against Ctesiphon 160), of later seeking favor from Alexander (same,162), of his insincerity and cowardice (against Ctesiphon 150-152), are omitted.

The following remark made by an ancient writer commenting on Demosthenes's accusation of Philippos (Olynthiakos G' 16) being a barbarian highlights the beliefs of all other Greeks as well as the real beliefs of Demosthenes:

"YBRISAI TOYTON (meaning FILIPPON DEMOSUENHS) BOYLOMENOS KALEIN BARBARON, EPEI <EI> TO ALHUES SKOPHSEI, EYRHSEI AYTON ELLHNAN ARGEION KAI APO HRAKLEOYS TO GENOS KATAGOMENON, VS PANTES OI ISTORIKOI MARTYROYSIN...".

"He slandered Philip calling him barbarian, Philip was descended from the Argives and Hercules as all historians had attested"

In short the accusation on behalf of Demosthenes was just a slander since every historian at that time knew that Philippos was Greek in descent.

Macedonians spoke a North-West dialect of Greek which completely rules out "Hellenization". What do you think the Olympics were all about and why do you think barbarians, non-Greeks were excluded. What do you think Alexander's speeches were all about. The Macedonians were descended from Macedon the brother of Megarus and grandson of Deukalion and were a Dorian tribe. Macedonian was a tribal identity. The national identity was Greek.

[Laberia]

We speak a Slavic language, this is no secret and nothing to be ashamed of at all! how can we be ashamed of the fact that we helped spread Slavonic literature, culture and Christianity across eastern Europe, to the people who had no alphabet. But, genetically we haven't moved from where we currently live. So going by your logic and thought process; Singaporeans are a cup of tea drinking, jam tart eating, cricket playing British subjects. Singaporeans speak better English then half of England.

So, after that your ancestors have spread the Hellenic culture until Afganistan and India, later they continued to spread the Slavic culture in whole Eastern Europe. Is this what are you trying to say?

[Vojnik]

So, after that your ancestors have spread the Hellenic culture until Afganistan and India, later they continued to spread the Slavic culture in whole Eastern Europe. Is this what are you trying to say?

Yes. Why not?

[Vojnik]

Haven't you tired of bringing up Demosthenes out of context quote?

Blah blah blah. There was a clear distinct Macedonian nation and kingdom.

Diodorus Siculus:

[14] A few of the Illyrians and the Thracians joined the alliance (with the Greeks) because of their hatred of the Macedonians. 18.11.1-2

[16] Now that this great force had been added to the Athenians, the Greeks, who far outnumbered the Macedonians, were successful. 18.12.4

[17] As the Macedonians defended themselves stoutly, many of the Greeks who pushed on rashly were killed. 18.12.1-2

[18] Antiphilus, the Greek commander, having defeated the Macedonians in a glorious battle played a waiting game, remaining in Thessaly and watching for the enemy to move. The affairs of the Greeks were thus in thriving condition, but since the Macedonians had command of the sea, the Athenians made ready other ships… 18.15.7-8.

[19] Then after such a combat I have described, the battle was broken off, as the scales of victory swung in favour of the Macedonians. More then 500 of the Greeks were killed in the battle, and 130 of the Macedonians. 18.17.5

[20] The commandant of the garrison of that city, Archelaus, who was a Macedonian by RACE, welcomed Attalus and surrendered the city to him… 18.37.3-4.

Soooooooooooo many more similar quotes.

[CabOOM]

Yes. Why not?

You literally have Slavic as your Meta-Ethnicity. Noone understands what the hell you talking about.

What would prevent me from going to Mongolia and claim Genghis Khan. Ofcourse with your same logic, I would be an English speaking, Balkanic, Caucasian individual. I would continue to hold all of these to be true, but just like you, also claim decent of Genghis Khan. How idiotic is this?

[wvwvw]

Alexander was Greek only in the ancient sense of the word, Which denoted a person who belonged to the dominant culture at that time. Hellenistic culture of ancient times was the equivalent of Western culture of today.

Western culture is dominated by the English language, yet you have non anglo saxons who speak it.

Nope, Alexander was Greek by descend. The Macedonians were Greeks descended form Deucalion and Alexander was descended from a line of Argive kings who were descended from Herakles on his father's side and on his mothers side he was descended from Achilles.

This is also why the Egyptians told Alexander the Great he was the son of Ammon and worshipped him as their God, since Alexander was a descendent of Aegyptus the father of Lynceus, the father of Abas, father of Acrisius, father of Perseus, father of Alcaeus, father of Amphitryon, father of Herakles, father of Hyllus, father of Cleodeus, father of Aristomachus, father of Temenus king of Argos from whom Alexander was descended.

We know that Tutmeses written Djehutymes in Egyptian was Aegyptus after whom the Greeks named Egypt. From Jerome we know that Aegyptus reigned over Egypt in 1480 BC, 6 years before Danaus his brother ruled in Argos. According to the Low Chronology Tutmoses III begins his reign over Egypt in 1479 BC thus agreeing with Jerome.

The Macedonians spoke a North-West dialect of Greek not the Koine Greek language that was spoken in Hellenistic times which rules out "Hellenization". Hellenization never meant becoming or assimilated into Greek anyway. Hellenization meant respect for the local languages and cultures.

The reason Alexander spread Hellenism across his empire was because he wanted to educate people and prevent them from becoming barbarians and attack Greeks again.

Alexander felt that by educating foreign peoples by the Greek system while sustaining their indigenous roots and cultures and allowing them retain their respective ways of life, he would be able to expand his empire without having to look back and deal with insurrections within his domain. The Hellenized people were clearly distinguished from the Hellenes who were of Greek descend who worshipped their Gods by their Greek names and had tribal identities, and spoke Greek as their mother tongue.

There were the indigenous Greek populations hailing from Greece and Asia Minor, the Hellenistas, and the Hellenized people.

Ellinistas = Greeks from the (Hellenized) States (i.e.. Syria, Palestine, Egypt)

A Hellenist and the only people described as Hellenists are the people who worshiped the Greek Gods by their Greek names and they are clearly differentiated from the Hellenized Jews for example, and other non Greek people.

Only those who were of Greek decent worshiped the Greek Gods by their Greek names since the Greek religion was one of Ancestor Worship and the Gods were their ancestors. The Jews worshiped their own Gods such as Elyon, El and Jehovah by their Hebrew/Phoenician names, and the Egyptians their own Gods such as Ra, Osyris and Thoth by their Egyptian names. No one worshiped anyone else's Gods by anyone else's names. Instead they associated them with their own Gods, therefore Isis was associated with Demeter, or Io, and worshiped them by their own names.

In the Hellenistic states like Egypt or Syria, the Hellenistas were called by their tribal names. The Seleukids did not call the Greeks, Greeks, but they called them by their tribal names.
When Greeks settled in Syria, Phonetia, Egypt etc, Alexander respected all of the local religions and customs. Everyone was free to worship their Gods. Never imposed their culture on anyone because Greek culture was based on multi-culturalism and co-existance. Jews were Jews and lived in their own quarters of the city. Greeks were Greeks and lived in their own quarters of the city and so on.

[wvwvw]

We speak a Slavic language, this is no secret and nothing to be ashamed of at all! how can we be ashamed of the fact that we helped spread Slavonic literature, culture and Christianity across eastern Europe, to the people who had no alphabet. But, genetically we haven't moved from where we currently live. So going by your logic and thought process; Singaporeans are a cup of tea drinking, jam tart eating, cricket playing British subjects. Singaporeans speak better English then half of England.

But the Bulgarian language you speak is wrongly called Macedonian, since the Macedonian dialect was a North-West dialect of Greek more closely related to Homer Greek than Attic Greek.

Singaporeans don't speak Scottish or Cumbrian or Welsh Dialects of English, they speak standard English, and the earliest recorded languages of Singapore were dialects of Mandarin.

Why is Greek the only recorded language spoken by the Macedonians. If they didn't speak Greek them what language did that speak and how is their language relevant to the language you speak.

[Albobalboa]

You literally have Slavic as your Meta-Ethnicity. Noone understands what the hell you talking about.

What would prevent me from going to Mongolia and claim Genghis Khan. Ofcourse with your same logic, I would be an English speaking, Balkanic, Caucasian individual. I would continue to hold all of these to be true, but just like you, also claim decent of Genghis Khan. How idiotic is this?

Would a DNA test place you around the area of where Genghis Khan was from? What a dumb fuck comparison that was. These confused Slavs have as much right to a person from thousands of years ago as the confused Greeks do.