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Thread: NOBILITY in your country. Post how much.

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jehan View Post
    The two links I provide, thoses :
    https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fausse_noblesse
    https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noblesse_d%27apparence

    are about fake nobility. It's people who are consider as noble but who aren't.
    A ok. As usually, I did not read the title

  2. #62
    Veteran Member Jehan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rethel von Rethelsky View Post
    And yet from your link:

    En France, la République ne reconnaissant pas la noblesse « qui est une qualité qui n'a plus d'effet juridique », ni la justice ni l'administration ne peuvent se prononcer sur la « noblesse » ou non d'une personne13.

    Depuis 1932 l'Association d'entraide de la noblesse française (ANF) regroupe au sein de son association des membres des familles subsistantes de la noblesse française. L’ANF a reçu depuis sa création 2 329 familles et elle compte actuellement environ 6 000 membres. Sont admis les candidats qui, conformément à des lois, règles et usages qui se sont appliqués aux diverses catégories de la noblesse française, mais qui sont aujourd'hui abolis en France, prouvent la noblesse de l’auteur auquel ils se rattachent et que les conditions d'une transmission régulière de cette qualité jusqu’à eux14 aurait pu être réalisée si certaines de ces normes n'avaient pas été abolies.

    Il est à noter que l'ANF étant une association privée, elle ne se prononce selon ses règles que sur la qualité nobiliaire de ses membres15 selon ses propres règles et définitions. Ses décisions ne sont donc en aucun cas une reconnaissance officielle de noblesse et n'ont aucune valeur hors de ce cadre strictement privé. L'ANF ne se prononce pas sur les titres (authentiques ou de courtoisie) portés par ses adhérents.


    So, this is clearly only a number of people who are in society,
    and yet, they do not have any authority to decide, who is a
    noble, and who is not. Probably, they are some closed circle.

    What they mean, is they haven't the power to decide or provide nobility titles. As by definition, only a king can. And that officially we are in republic, so nobility has no official existence anymore.
    They said that to determine who can enter the association, they use the old rule of nobility transmission and imagiine that without political change who would be noble today.




    Quote Originally Posted by Rethel von Rethelsky View Post
    Similar situation, but without society, is in Poland, where "aristocracy"
    is only in her own circle. A duke is working during the day in a factory,
    and at the evening, he is a duke among his own circle, thinking, that
    they are more noble than nobles. Unfortunatly, into this circle slowly
    are getting people who are not nobles at all, just becasue some cheak
    wanted to marry one. This is just silly. Normal nobility looks like the
    average people, and some of them are in the Confderation, some not,
    but everyone, who do proof his nobility, can be a member.
    I don't get your point here.


    PS: I send a message to Valmont who have knowledge on the subject.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jehan View Post
    Aristocracy is a political organization.
    Ok, we will not get to the point, the word has different meanings.
    What I meant is a higher nobility which has a rank-title.
    These are for example Grands in Spain. But they are not whole nobility.
    With time in some countries there was a tendency, to declassation of the rest.
    Today, in Spain, probably only the forst class is admited as nobilty,
    but it is of cousrse not agreeable with the truth, espcially in Castillia,
    where 8% of population was nobles, and only a tiny % of it grands.

    Similar factual (not real) thing happened in those countries where nobility
    was abolished - becasue only the richest ones and being into highest circle
    were able to sustain their status, familiarity and usuins, regardless state's
    policy towards them. Rest of nobles was only foreced to rely on themsleves,
    not making any unions, contacts or clubs, where they would belong. But it
    doesn;t mean, that they are not nobles - they are just not in the charmed
    circle. As in France there was a severe persecutions, many of them hide
    themselves - so, the real number of nobility is probably higher. Of course,
    the propotion has to be counted not from present population but from the
    old one, which is some 60% of the modern.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jehan View Post
    What they mean, is they haven't the power to decide or provide nobility titles. As by definition, only a king can. And that officially we are in republic, so nobility has no official existence anymore. They said that to determine who can enter the association, they use the old rule of nobility transmission and imagiine that without political change who would be noble today.
    Yes, but it is private institution, not assemblimg all possible nobles.

    I don't get your point here.
    The point is, that some titled nobles, who in reality do not
    differenciate today from rest of nobility, live in enchanted
    circle. If someone would consider them to be the only or
    true nobility, then he would be in great mistake.

  5. #65
    Veteran Member Jehan's Avatar
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    Probably,

    I don't find a real fix definition of nobility. It might be possible the rules aren't the same everywhere

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jehan View Post
    Probably,

    I don't find a real fix definition of nobility. It might be possible the rules aren't the same everywhere
    There were of course differences, but one rule was at least everywhere:
    all paternal descendants of knighthood and ennoblement later persons (if
    hereditary). Titles is a different matter, which could be inherited only in
    prime one line (as british lords) or not - like in Russia or Germany, where
    all descendats of entitled noble bear the title of count or baron. Obviously
    not all nobility was entitled. Usually it is called the "opera's titles" as such
    counts or dukes never had any earldom or dukedom, but bear title. Only
    the descendats of some dynasties or latifundists are different matter, as
    they used to have a real power, but its are just a few families, which can
    be count on the fingers of one hand, mainly just Rurikids and Gediminids.

    In addition, in Poland, all nobles are equal, no matter what. You can have
    no land, or just one alodial acre, and be equal to the greatest landlords,
    which often were able to gain foreign rank-titles, but on the ground of
    polish law, mean absolutly nothing. But even in those countries, where
    they make a differentiation exist "titled nobility" and "not-titled nobility".


    Btw, the term "noble title" is often confusing, as he has two totaly
    different meanings: one is the nobility itself, and the second one is
    the rank-additional-title to nobleness, as baron, count, duke aso.

    So, sometimes, user of the word can have totaly different thing in mind.

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    Btw, the most peasant countries are germanic ones, where only a few are nobles.

    The worst situtaion is probably in Germany, where once
    famous and large in number knighthood is totaly evaporated.

    They probably exist, but noone knows how many of them.

    Officially, they recognize only 0.01% of sociaty as nobles, among which only couple of
    percentages are Uradel (before 1450). rest are just Briefadels, mostly even just bought.

    similarly is in scandinavia where only couple of thousand
    of people are officialy regognized by their ridderhouses.

    Finland has something 5000 if I remember correctly, Sweden
    and Norway not too much than it. So obviously, there ahs to
    be something wrong, as impossible is, that all medieval knights
    vanished. Probably they at one time degradated all not titled
    nobles, being happy about the richest ones.

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    The Dutch so called royal family are just a bunch of satanic aristocratic SCUM

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    In Serbia I'd say 5% is genetically royal like everywhere in Serbia so in all of the population.

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    Don't know about them, families that always leached of poor people and middle-class history wise, bunch of wankers.

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