R1a-M458-L1029*

[Rethel]

Only, no slavs belong to L1029* per Yfull, but further downstream L1029 clades(which I lack in entirety).

This is why I said, that it is not possible to say for sure.
Oldest types with *, are a problem, as they are usually
scattered everywhere, sugesting more ancient wandering.
But everywhere, means also among Slavs, where rest of
clades are present. Plus, in deep antiquity Slavs existed
too, but some incidental wanderings happened too. For
example somebody did join Goths, somebody else was
sold into slavery in Rome, someone was a trader and
yet someone was a traveler... hg from historical times
is often not clear and never will be without pedirgree.

Case of my clade is similar to your's btw.

I think people need to take into account that many of these branches(whether integral to the slavic ethnogenesis or not) were already wide spread prior to the formation of the Slavs to begin with.

Yes, this is actually what I always repeat.

Considering this branch has a TMRCA of 2000ypb. It could have been brought by any number of tribes in central and eastern Europe.

But there is no need for Völkerwanderung - people are in movement independently of it.

[Peterski]

I know L1029 is considered typically Slavic. But the Slavic samples seem to belong more downstream under L1029.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-L1029/

Notice that two of those L1029* samples listed by YFull are from Mecklenburg-Vorpommern.

I would consider them Slavic considering that Mecklenburg used to be Slavic land. See here:

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post328344

My wife is 100% indigenous to Western Mecklenburg for abt. 8 known generations! The ancestors were very rural and kind of "avoided" every city in between. (...) Mecklenburg is old Slavic land and the inner parts of the land were just poorly colonized by old-Germans. On the other hand the 30year war (1618-1648) led to an extreme decrease of the population in Mecklenburg from 300.000 to just 50.000. This caused a notable resettlement from Schleswig-Holstein and from Brandenburg. The amount of this resettlement is unkown and prior to beginning of church records. The family has numerous surnames of Slavic etymology as Züdel, Zabel, Pommerenke etc. which emerged hundreds of years before the 30year war.

[Dibran]

This is why I said, that it is not possible to say for sure.
Oldest types with *, are a problem, as they are usually
scattered everywhere, sugesting more ancient wandering.
But everywhere, means also among Slavs, where rest of
clades are present. Plus, in deep antiquity Slavs existed
too, but some incidental wanderings happened too. For
example somebody did join Goths, somebody else was
sold into slavery in Rome, someone was a trader and
yet someone was a traveler... hg from historical times
is often not clear and never will be without pedirgree.

My clade is similar to yours btw.



Yes, this is actually what I always repeat.



But there is no need for Völkerwanderung - people are in movement independently of it.

Oh sure. I don't doubt a guy could have wandered off on his own. Or joined Romans, enslaved etc. Definitely possible. My family has always had an issue with authority. I imagine it could have been a non conformist splintering off the ranks. I guess time will tell.

Kelmendasi mentioned the Macromanni which I didnt think of.

[Dibran]

Notice that two of those L1029* samples listed by YFull are from Mecklenburg-Vorpommern.

I would consider them Slavic considering that Mecklenburg used to be Slavic land. See here:

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post328344

It was German land alot earlier before it became Slavic and German again. Germanic tribes also occupied a large swathe of land typically occupied by Slavs today. You have to consider numerous probabilities. I know everyone wants clean answers, but thats not the reality.

We know E-V13 is most predominant in Albanians. But, we know not all E-V13 is Albanian. Try to apply the same approach.

[Rethel]

Notice that two of those L1029* samples listed by YFull are from Mecklenburg-Vorpommern.

I would consider them Slavic considering that Mecklenburg used to be Slavic land. See here:

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post328344

Make Dibran Slav again!

=Dibrański

[Dibran]

Make Dibran Slav again!

=Dibrański

I am not a Slav. Just as much as an E-V13 Greek or Spaniard is not an Albanian. Nice try though.

[Peterski]

It was German land alot earlier before it became Slavic and German again.

But it was depopulated during the Migration Period and settled by Slavs. Then it was colonized by Germans who mixed with and assimilated local Slavic population, but Germans settled especially along the Baltic coast. In more inland parts of Mecklenburg, Slavic was still spoken as late as 1648 AD. Because inland parts were only poorly colonized by Germans (as that guy, who is German, wrote). This map shows where the population was still Slavic-speaking in the 1500s-1600s:

https://s29.postimg.org/y03o0yyx3/Polabians.png



About the depopulation of Eastern Germania during the Migration Period, read below. Summary of new research on the Migration Period in East Germany and westernmost Poland (Armin Volkmann "Siedlung – Klima – Migrationen: Geoarchäologische Forschungen zur Oderregion zwischen 700 vor und 1000 nach Chr. mit Fokus auf der Völkerwanderungszeit"):

https://www.academia.edu/1495365/Sie...wanderungszeit

"In the context of the study, an analysis in a GIS of sites from the Iron Age to the Early Middle Ages was applied to the River Oder Region. A site catchment analysis of the topographical setting, the soil and broader parameters was conducted as a GIS examination. In this the spatial data information in a probable operating radius around the respective settlements of the individual periods was collected and evaluated statistically. In this way, statistically significant climate proxies on the relative humidity index and temperature pattern of the paleoclimate could be demonstrated. Through the use of weighted average means it was possible to describe climate signals of the compared periods. The quantitative analysis of the data of more than 500 finding sites allows identifying significant signals. As a result I found out that at the end of the Iron Age and at the beginning of the migration period, dramatic climate fluctuations are recognized. The climate fluctuations are the main reason for emigration out of this region. In the migration period, and again at the end of the Iron Age, the region was virtually uninhabited for 250 years. The data from the site catchment analysis is in a next step the base for a predictive modeling with has clearly defined areas of high and low probabilities of finding sites.

A site catchment analysis of the topographical setting, the soil and broader parameters was conducted as a GIS examination, in which the spatial data information in a probable operating radius around the respective settlements of the individual periods was collected and evaluated statistically. In this way, statistically significant climate proxies on the relative humidity index and temperature pattern of the paleoclimate could be demonstrated. In addition, the deciding location factors of the soil and the geoecological environment of the settlement as well as distortionary anthropogenic and natural superimpositions were discussed. The ecological indicator values were rearranged into concise categories in a transformation process in consideration of their usability and informative value for matters concerning prehistoric, agronomically orientated cultures and checked for climate signals. The identified climate signals do not represent absolute data, but rather indirect, relative data, which permit comparative statements concerning the previous and subsequent level.
With the use of comparative climate research, palynology, dendrochronology, the status of glaciers, river levels and models of paleotemperature, the climate signals that were produced in the context of the GIS environmental analysis could be verified. In this way, the probability and concision of the environmental analysis developed here and its particularly detailed chronological value were substantiated.

The final step of the GIS analysis is based on Voronoi diagrams of the sites mapped as prehistoric space models. They show concepts of space in time. In a cartographic reconstruction of settlement clusters, the relationship between the anthropogenically influenced agricultural area and extensive natural forest areas was visualised. These methods are a part for the predictive modeling to clarify for example the most interesting regions of the settlements in the migration period.

In the early Migration Period (D), the climate worsened dramatically and weather became very cool and dry in the course of only a few decades. Very poor conditions for land cultivation and animal husbandry resulted from this, which withdrew their livelihood in many places from the Germanic groups engaged in subsistence agriculture. On this limited scale, this could be buffered by more intensive trade, like the piled material found on the site and documented by geomorphology on the aforementioned trade and transit routes Settlements in micro regional favoured areas with a guaranteed supply of water such as kettle lakes, for example, could continue to exist. Spatial analysis of settlements shows a strong shrinking of the settlement clusters to remaining areas in which agricultural activity was still possible. Thus, there is a great disparity of a juxtaposition of extremely unequal small scale economic potential, which led to the widespread disintegration of settlement clusters and the accompanying dismantling of settlements in the subsequent late Migration Period (E). Simultaneously, the areas of the extensive natural, potential forest communities that are not influenced by humans increased greatly, whereas in Period E only “islands of remnant settlements” still existed in the surrounding woodlands. These types of settlements are the same as those identified in the late Roman Iron Age, but they have degenerated to a very large extent. Likewise, the parallels in construction are striking, where long houses that were used by a larger settlement community, are very rare. In contrast, smaller residential buildings or barns and storage sheds are frequently in post construction as well as upright and probably log construction, which were used by smaller family alliances, often as individual hamlets.

In this way, the Germanic emigration from the Oder region is to be viewed as being organised into at least three main phases:

1. Already in the late Roman Iron Age there was a substantial migration in spite of the moist, warm climate of the favourable phase, which was triggered by the political weakness of the Roman Empire (the so-called imperial crisis of the soldier emperor with the fall of the Upper Germanic and Rhaetian Limes in 254 AD and the subsequent withdrawal of the border in the Rhine and Danube area) in the 3rd century AD and the related opportunities for plundering. This pulling effect of the Roman Empire which was rocked by crisis continued as a domino effect into the eastern Barbaricum in the Oder area. The Germanic migration is not just to be viewed as pointing to the southwest, however, as some Germanic people turned back again in a single cycle, as individual groups with particularly valuable pieces of furniture in late Germanic burial grounds clarify (the so-called “princely grave group of the Haßleben-Leuna- Häven type”).

2. In the early Migration Period, there is a dramatic worsening of the climate, which withdrew the foundation of the subsistence economy from large sections of the population which were characterized by agriculture. However, the political circumstances of the declining Roman Empire with the possibilities of seizing land and the existence of continuing opportunities to plunder increased the very intense migration of the late Germanic population from the Oder, mainly from Period D2, as numerous find sites from Period D1 are known. The high density of settlements in the moist Spree-Havel region, which was used as an intermediate stage in the south-westerly direction of the wave of migration is noticeable. The magnetic effect of the Roman Empire with its impressive, high-quality cultural assets in combination with the worsening climate in Barbaricum triggered an economically orientated wave of migration, which reached its peak in the 5th century AD (due to the simultaneous, political and military weakness of the-Roman Empire). Thus, undoubtedly, there was a heightened potential for conflict at the peak of the drought period, as is revealed by the incursions of Germanic peoples into the Roman Empire.

3. Despite the sharp rise in rainfall numbers in the late Migration Period (Period E), there was no certainty that grain could be harvested in the Oder region, as, on the one hand, the further reaching climate instability did not facilitate this due to torrential rain followed by temporary periods of drought and as, on the other hand, it must be assumed that there was an immense loss of expertise due to the preceding migration, particularly of the elite, younger and flexible sectors of the population. These problems were intensified even more by the heavy encroachment of scrub and the reforestation or partial desertification of the agricultural areas that were previously forsaken during Period D, as there was no potential labour force available for the agronomic re-cultivation of these fallow lands for labour intensive forest clearance measures (e.g. due to a positive population balance or birth surplus). Now, due to the relative increase in humidity as well, the Spree-Havel area, which had proven to be a favoured settlement area during the dry phase of Period D2, was of no agronomic interest. Up until Period E2 there was an almost complete dismantling of settlements in that area. Only in the northern part of the area being studied, an isolated remnant of the Germanic population whose economic basis is to be viewed as being linked to trade with Scandinavia to compensate for its non-productive agriculture is still also sporadically tangible in the 7th century AD (Period E3). In addition to that, however, all “remnants of Germanic traces” are located in only one diagonal strip of the very fertile marly soil which runs from north to south and is composed of a greatly varied biogeographical potential, which enabled flexible agriculture to be the primary source of income. The site where heaped material was found on both sides of the Oder in regions where there is black earth, with the most fertile soils and above all, an optimal groundwater level is of note. In addition, outside of the area under examination, as in the Magdeburger Börde, in the Thuringian Basin (Thüringer Becken) or in the Wetterau, an elevated incidence of finds from Period E is to be noted in these basin landscapes that are moulded by a relatively dry continental climate. There is a clear connection between the spatial distribution of the black earth and the late Migration Period sites."

[Rethel]

We know E-V13 is most predominant in Albanians. But, we know not all E-V13 is Albanian. Try to apply the same approach.

But in this case it is not so relevant, as it is known, that V13
is not ilirian, not slavic, not greek, not even Indoeuropean.

In the case of R*, which is IE, the scattering of subtype between
subgroups can be very confusing, as the last level common for this
groups were probably protoproto IE times. Even if some groups did
split monoclanicly (it is visible only in couple of clades) then later,
through 90% of history, were mixing constantly. So, it would be
relevant in such case to know, was such clade pre-slavic or not,
to determine evantual original dialectical subgroup of origin. But
it seems from genealogical and historical perspective, that slavic
wanderings are allready a very deep antiquity, as it is probably
impossible to say, what would be origin of such clade as yours.

It is also important to mention, that eventual deslavization could
happen of any moment between VI century and XIX (i dont know
how old is your known history), and even earlier, as I pointed in
earlier post of mine. So, I sometimes wonder, if there is sense of
debating such cases, as it never can be sure.

I am not a Slav.

Just it is not known yet
But maybe it will be finaly established

[Peterski]

As for that 1 sample from Norway - likely a descendant of German settlers from Mecklenburg-Vorpommern (if you read about the history of Norway, you will see that many Germans settled there in Late Medieval and Early Modern times).

[Dibran]

........."

Well, I don't match those samples to begin with. Not until I see with Yfull if I do or form my own cluster(like the Cagliari sample). Regardless, I belong to L1029*, and share none of the downstream SNPs under L1029. Most of L1029 that is associated with the great migration are further downstream, which I lack.