whoa are the modern day iberians descended from??

[Gota_type_]

Prove it.

I highly question that "some medieval Christian kings had relations with moorish women". Can you prove it? I have never read anything remotely similar to what you say. With "moorish" it could be just muladíes (ex-christians, ie natives of Spain, that just changed religión, as the Banu Qasi of Zaragoza, which were germanic visigoths that converted to islam just to maintain their status). In any case, just because 2 nobles married 2 moorish (your hypothesis) means nothing in relation of the moorish expulsions: 100% of them were expelled (or if you prefer: 99.99999% of them). Even many of them were native iberians with muslim religión or people that were 50% of more European, all of them were expelled.

The Moors weren't all expelled, as some medieval Christian kings had relations with Moorish women and their bastard offspring were ennobled.

According to genealogical records, I am a direct descendant of Abderramán I, the Emir of Cordoba from 756 to 788, and he was a Berber from North Africa. I am also a direct descendant of Abdalá I de Córdova (888 to 912) through Ermígio Aboazar (born c. 980) a knight of the reconquista whom was also a great-grandson of Ramiro II of Leon. Their descendants eventually became Lords of Vagos, and Aires Gomes da Silva who was one of the knights that conquered Ceuta, by the 18th century I am descendant one of the lesser important lines in Vouzela, and from there my ancestors in this branch decrease in importance and wealth.

[Cristiano viejo]

I am genuinely interested though because the Portuguese national archive (Torre do Tombo) was established in 1378 and he says that he has some certainty that he descends from someone that lived in the 8th century. Most genealogical records in Portugal are extremely flimsy if they go beyond the 16th century. Not that I am doubting Viriatus91 but I never heard of anyone that could trace his ancestry that far (with perhaps the exception of the Bragança family, herders of the crown).

Yep, same here.
I do doubt, it sounds like a very scifi story.

[Viriatus91]

Yep, same here.
I do doubt, it sounds like a very scifi story.

I did not make it up, but I saw under the wiki article below. I do take anything from before 1500 with a grain of salt, but it does seem that during the early reconquista, there was not the same prejudice about marrying converts as there would be later on. Afonso III of Portugal had an affair with Madragana Ben Aloandro (Mor Afono), daughter of the last Muslim alcaide of Faro and the fair produced two children. The eldest, Martim Afonso, became "lord of Santarem". Their daughter Dona Urraca Afonso became lady of Riba de Vizela and Briteiros through marriage, and both had descendents.

Now after years of work, this is the one somewhat important line of my ancestry that I was able to trace back further, using geneall.net for help as someone had done the legwork for me. My 7th great-grandmother is the most recent one I listed here. In Vouzela I was able to find the parish registers back to 1577 which helped. The ones going back to around the founding of the kingdom seem fairly reliable as people like Heitor Homem had some importance along with the senhores of Vagos.


Aboazar Lovesendes (c955 to 978), senhora da Maia & Unisco Godins

Here is the wikipedia article
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aboazar_Lovesendes
Aboazar Lovesendes or Aboaçar Lovesendes (c.955-978) was a medieval knight. He was the ancestor of the Lords of Maia.
According to expert Todd Farmerie, "Aboazar, founder of the Maya, was Abunazar Lovesendes, proving his father was an otherwise unknown Lovesendo."
There is a modern theory "Abunazar Lovesendes (de Maya) son of Lovesendo, [was] a back-door associate of the Leonese royalty, by Ortiga, descendant of Ummayad Abd Allah." This is a "Recent attempt to salvage/reconstruct traditional Maya descent. Based on appearance of some of the relevant names in contemporary documents, and some hypotheses regarding how the tradition may have become corrupted from the events which (hypothetically) served as its basis."
Another speculative claim is that Aboazar was born in León, Spain, son of Lovesendo Ramires and Zaira bint Zaydan, descendant of Abdullah ibn Muhammad al-Umawi. His grandfather was Ramiro III of León. He was married to Unisco Godins, daughter of Godinho, Count of Asturias.
"... foi chamado o Cid Alboazar venceo m.tas batalhas aos Mouros em Castella e Portugal e os expulsou de toda a comarca de Entre Douro e Minho, e allem Douro the S. Martinho de Mouros e Lamego, povoou m.tas terras, e dotou o Mosteiro de S. Tirso onde jaz enterrado..." Felgueiras Gaio - Araújos §1 N2
Sources
Todd A. Farmerie, "Muslim/Christian descents in Early-Medieval Spain" at soc.genealogy.medieval (June 16, 2001).

Aboazar Lovesendes (c955 to 978), senhora da Maia & Unisco Godins
Ermigio Aboazar, senhor da Maia (c980 to 1044) = Dordia Ozores
Adosinda Ermigues (c1010) = Pelaio Guterres da Silva (c1000)
Pelaio Guterres da Silva (c1000) & Adosinda Ermigues
Guterre Alderete da Silva (c1040-?) & Maria Pires de Ambia
Paio Guterres da Silva (c1070 to 1130) & Sancha Ibanez de Montor
Gomes Pais da Silva, senhor de Santa Olaia (c1125 to c1170) & Urraca Nunes Velho
Paio Gomes da Silva (c1170 to 1258) & Maria Fernandes de Nóvoa
Gomes Pais da Silva, alcaide-mor de Guimarães (c1220) & Maria Ruiz
João Gomes da Silva (c1270) & Consantza Gil de Yola
Gonçalo Gomes da Silva, senhor de Vagos, Tentúgal e Buarcos (c1320-1386) & Leonor Gonçalves Coutinho
João Gomes da Silva, 2º senhor de Vagos (c1360) & Margarida Coelho
Aires Gomes da Silva, 3º senhor de Vagos (c1390) & Beatriz Teles de Menezes (c1390)
Fernão Teles de Menezes (1431-1477) & Maria de Vilhena
Aires Teles de Menezes (1462)
Beatriz Aires Teles (XVI century) & Diogo Homem
Heitor Homem Teles, Chanceler da Relação do Porto, Cavaleiro do Hábito de Cristo (c1510) & Isabel de Saraiva Sampaio
Paulo Homem Teles (c1575) & ?
Cláudio Homem Teles (c1595) & Maria de Barros Pinto
Isabel Saraiva de Sampaio (c1620) & João de Madureira Freire
Claudio Homem Teles (c1645) & Maria Saraiva
***Maria Freire Telles (1688) & Jorge de Almeida de Azevedo
Ana Joaquina Telles (1716-1793) (7th Great Grandmother) & João Pedro da Costa e Veiga (1712)

[Cristiano viejo]

^ these are legends, man. Even in your link it gets

Aboazar is the subject of a traditional heroic tale, the Miragaia.[3] This legend would make him progeny of the romantic liaison between Ramiro II of León and the daughter of a local Muslim lord, though his patronymic shows that his father must instead have been named Leodesindo (Lovesendo). He has sometimes been erroneously named Aboazar Ramírez on the basis of the legend. According to the legend in its late medieval form, he was nicknamed Cide (from Arabic sayyid, lord), a common nickname in the tenth century and one he may actually have borne.

[Viriatus91]

[QUOTE=Cristiano viejo;6839748]^ these are legends, man. Even in your link it gets

There was also the relationship of Alfonso VI of Castile and Leon, with Zaida, who some was his wife, but she was IMO probably his mistress. They had three children, and according to some sources through Infanta Elvira all European royalty alive today is descended from Moors. Now I am not saying that this is definitive proof that Moorish blood was widespread, but I am not going to act as if there were no unions between conversos and the inhabitants of Iberia. I try to look objectively as a scientist would at the past, not placing my own prejudices above objectivity.

The question is how much impact these relations had, and it was probably very little, something comparable to the native-American impact on the bloodline of most Anglo-Americans. An ancestor or two from a millennium ago probably will not add up to very much. One thing that I have realized from working for years on my genealogy is that before 1800 entire lines of descendants would go extinct due to high mortality rates. In fact there is a hypothesis by Yale University statistician Joseph Chang that every European alive today if records existed could trace their common ancestry to the XIII century. Most Europeans and their descendants alive today, are likely descended from a much smaller genepool that though. Looking at archives, what I found was that all over Europe, cities and towns until the XIX century were demographic sinkholes due to disease, warfare and famine. Looking at parish records of Lisbon from the XVIII century, the population only grew because it was constantly being replenished with new arrivals from other regions of Portugal, along with Galicia and yes African slaves. But what I found was that the deaths far exceeded new births so something, with many people not having descendants within two generations. Considering that the Moors at least in Portugal were overwhelmingly confined to cities and towns after the reconquista, I would imagine that many left no modern descendants.

To me it matters very little whether or not I have North African Ancestry, I was actually surprised when my 23andme showed only 0.5% Western Asian & North African and 0% Ashkenazi Jewish after being told that a significant portion of Iberian DNA was Moorish and Jewish. I figured it would be at least 10% or something like that. All of my life I have been told in the U.S. that my mother and sisters and I "do not look Portuguese" because we all have blue eyes, have fair skin and lighter colored hair. My father looks more typical, but even on his side my two first cousins were blonde (but grew out of it). Just a few weeks ago a neighbor of mine asked me and my sister what our background was, and when we said Portuguese he said "but you are white" in shock. I think a lot of people expect Iberians to look North African so they assume the dna must be significant.

[Viriatus91]

I am genuinely interested though because the Portuguese national archive (Torre do Tombo) was established in 1378 and he says that he has some certainty that he descends from someone that lived in the 8th century. Most genealogical records in Portugal are extremely flimsy if they go beyond the 16th century. Not that I am doubting Viriatus91 but I never heard of anyone that could trace his ancestry that far (with perhaps the exception of the Bragança family, herders of the crown).

In Portugal it is actually quite easy if you go through the parish records almost everyone will have a destitute minor noble not too far back. My parents' hometown has intact records from 1602 onwards and most people were quite simple and poor, but once you start seeing an ancestor appear with long names and important people like Captains and Counts as godparents with others standing in for them by proxy it becomes easy to dig further back. Almost all of them are descended from bastards of the early kings of Portugal as are most politicians in Portugal. Once I found one, I dug and asked on geneall.net and was presented with some texts from noble records and even a grant from the XIV century. Additionally, the military records of the Orders of Christ along with church records as I have one ancestor that was an Inquisitor, so it becomes much easier. I actually was a bit disappointed with the genealogy section on this forum as I was expecting it to be more of a Europe-wide geneall.net with information being exchanged, particularly as I have Spanish ancestors and one French soldier from Dax, all arriving in Portugal in the XVIII century and cannot find the French or Spanish baptismal records online, so I know their parents names just not further back.

[Gota_type_]

Most people in Spain (and Portugal) get zero % northafrican in 23andme.

Just a few get less than 1% and it is not probably related with AlAndalus at all.

And being blond and blue eyed means little. There are many, I am one of them. Always the minority but noticiable. And even many families are brunettes and Brown eyed and in the following generation they have some blond blue eyed son. It is quite common.

[QUOTE=Viriatus91;6839790]

^ these are legends, man. Even in your link it gets

There was also the relationship of Alfonso VI of Castile and Leon, with Zaida, who some was his wife, but she was IMO probably his mistress. They had three children, and according to some sources through Infanta Elvira all European royalty alive today is descended from Moors. Now I am not saying that this is definitive proof that Moorish blood was widespread, but I am not going to act as if there were no unions between conversos and the inhabitants of Iberia. I try to look objectively as a scientist would at the past, not placing my own prejudices above objectivity.

The question is how much impact these relations had, and it was probably very little, something comparable to the native-American impact on the bloodline of most Anglo-Americans. An ancestor or two from a millennium ago probably will not add up to very much. One thing that I have realized from working for years on my genealogy is that before 1800 entire lines of descendants would go extinct due to high mortality rates. In fact there is a hypothesis by Yale University statistician Joseph Chang that every European alive today if records existed could trace their common ancestry to the XIII century. Most Europeans and their descendants alive today, are likely descended from a much smaller genepool that though. Looking at archives, what I found was that all over Europe, cities and towns until the XIX century were demographic sinkholes due to disease, warfare and famine. Looking at parish records of Lisbon from the XVIII century, the population only grew because it was constantly being replenished with new arrivals from other regions of Portugal, along with Galicia and yes African slaves. But what I found was that the deaths far exceeded new births so something, with many people not having descendants within two generations. Considering that the Moors at least in Portugal were overwhelmingly confined to cities and towns after the reconquista, I would imagine that many left no modern descendants.

To me it matters very little whether or not I have North African Ancestry, I was actually surprised when my 23andme showed only 0.5% Western Asian & North African and 0% Ashkenazi Jewish after being told that a significant portion of Iberian DNA was Moorish and Jewish. I figured it would be at least 10% or something like that. All of my life I have been told in the U.S. that my mother and sisters and I "do not look Portuguese" because we all have blue eyes, have fair skin and lighter colored hair. My father looks more typical, but even on his side my two first cousins were blonde (but grew out of it). Just a few weeks ago a neighbor of mine asked me and my sister what our background was, and when we said Portuguese he said "but you are white" in shock. I think a lot of people expect Iberians to look North African so they assume the dna must be significant.

[Viriatus91]

[QUOTE=Gota_type_;6840871]Most people in Spain (and Portugal) get zero % northafrican in 23andme.

Just a few get less than 1% and it is not probably related with AlAndalus at all.

I am genuinely curious to see how I found find out if I have any ancestry that would be related to North Africa, but the DNA calculators seem iffy at best. I have always been more interested in genealogy as it shows me a more accurate picture of my history than DNA so forgive me because I am an amateur at DNA. I also question it, because Gedmatch shows me plotting closer to Eastern Spain (Valencia, Aragon) in most calculators rather than Portugal, I could only trace a small part of my family history beyond the late XVI century. The one 7th great-grandparent I trace back and had an ancestor in Aragon, but even he is only from the XIV century.

Regarding Gedmatch, K36 says I have 3.25% North African and 0.99% Arabian. I compared this with my Anglo-American friend whose ancestors are all from Northern Europe, and he has 0% for each. Is there a goodway to find any recent North African ancestry? Interestingly, this Anglo friend of mine has 0.63% Northeast African on K13 and 0.48% on K15 whereas I am only 0.16% and 0.32%, respectively.

[Adamm]

What is your paternal haplogroup? @Viriatus91

[Viriatus91]

What is your paternal haplogroup? @Viriatus91

E-V257