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Thread: whoa are the modern day iberians descended from??

  1. #421
    Veteran Member Defcon2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ajeje Brazorf View Post
    North African admixture is often associated with Islam, but it is curious to note that in Andalusia such admixture peaked before the arrival of Islam and the Umayyads. Modern Andalusians obviously have less.

    Code:
    Target: Iberia_Southeast_c.3-4CE
    Distance: 3.7120% / 0.03712043
    54.8	TUR_Boncuklu_N
    13.4	UKR_Meso
    9.4	MAR_Taforalt
    7.0	TUR_Pinarbasi_HG
    5.4	GEO_CHG
    4.6	IRN_Tepe_Abdul_Hosein_N
    4.2	Levant_Natufian
    1.2	ITA_Villabruna
    
    Target: Iberia_Southeast_c.5-8CE
    Distance: 3.2280% / 0.03228002
    61.8	TUR_Boncuklu_N
    14.0	UKR_Meso
    11.2	MAR_Taforalt
    5.2	GEO_CHG
    3.8	IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
    2.2	Levant_Natufian
    1.8	SRB_Iron_Gates_HG
    
    Target: Iberia_Southeast_c.10-16CE
    Distance: 3.1200% / 0.03119952
    55.8	TUR_Boncuklu_N
    18.2	UKR_Meso
    8.8	MAR_Taforalt
    7.4	GEO_CHG
    7.4	Levant_Natufian
    2.4	IRN_Tepe_Abdul_Hosein_N
    
    Target: Spanish_Andalucia
    Distance: 4.3730% / 0.04373026
    61.4	TUR_Boncuklu_N
    22.8	UKR_Meso
    7.2	GEO_CHG
    3.8	MAR_Taforalt
    2.4	ITA_Villabruna
    2.4	Levant_Natufian
    Spreadsheet?

  2. #422
    Veteran Member Ajeje Brazorf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gota_type_ View Post
    6000 years ago, northafricans were indistinguibles from European whites.
    Autosomal analysis shows that they were actually very distinct and different from each other. I don't know what you mean by "European Whites", but I think you're referring to the classic mix of EEF/WHG+Steppe/CHG, those formed and expanded in Europe later than 6000 years ago.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gota_type_ View Post
    Even phoenicians autosomes says that their closest todays population will be southern Italians (much closer than any of todays northafricans).
    The populations closest to the Phoenicians are obviously certain Levantine groups such as the Samaritans or Lebanese Christians. The Punic samples from Sardinia are very mixed, heterogeneous and very distant from any modern population, they are closer to Jews than to Southern Italians.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gota_type_ View Post
    It is imposible that 80% of the people in Spain 6000 years ago were northafricans (to give us a 5% today).
    North Africans have never been 80% of the population. 6000 years ago and until the Bronze Age there was still no North African admixture in Iberia, but there were some very sporadic migrations (outliers) that did not affect the autosomal population in general. The populations modeled below range from the Neolithic to the early Bronze Age.

    Code:
    Target: Iberia_Central_CA_Afr
    Distance: 4.4736% / 0.04473573
    46.2	TUR_Boncuklu_N
    29.8	MAR_Taforalt
    17.0	Levant_Natufian
    7.0	CMR_Shum_Laka_8000BP
    
    Target: Iberia_Central_CA_Stp
    Distance: 4.6453% / 0.04645302
    58.0	TUR_Boncuklu_N
    29.2	UKR_Meso
    6.4	GEO_CHG
    6.4	ITA_Grotta_Continenza_Meso
    
    Target: Bell_Beaker_Iberia_C
    Distance: 4.3688% / 0.04368753
    67.4	TUR_Pinarbasi_HG
    21.4	ITA_Grotta_Continenza_Meso
    11.2	TUR_Boncuklu_N
    
    Target: Bell_Beaker_Iberia
    Distance: 4.3513% / 0.04351301
    63.4	TUR_Boncuklu_N
    16.4	ITA_Grotta_Continenza_Meso
    14.8	TUR_Pinarbasi_HG
    5.4	RUS_Sidelkino_HG
    
    Target: Iberia_Northwest_CA_Stp
    Distance: 4.7700% / 0.04769983
    61.4	TUR_Boncuklu_N
    14.6	RUS_Sidelkino_HG
    13.2	UKR_Meso
    8.4	ITA_Grotta_Continenza_Meso
    1.2	GEO_CHG
    1.2	MAR_Taforalt
    
    Target: Iberia_Central_CA
    Distance: 5.0018% / 0.05001790
    48.2	TUR_Pinarbasi_HG
    34.4	TUR_Boncuklu_N
    17.4	ITA_Grotta_Continenza_Meso
    
    Target: Iberia_Northeast_MLN
    Distance: 5.1899% / 0.05189942
    46.2	TUR_Boncuklu_N
    37.8	TUR_Pinarbasi_HG
    16.0	ITA_Grotta_Continenza_Meso
    
    Target: Iberia_Northeast_CA
    Distance: 5.2682% / 0.05268214
    59.0	TUR_Boncuklu_N
    22.8	TUR_Pinarbasi_HG
    18.2	ITA_Grotta_Continenza_Meso
    
    Target: Iberia_North_CA
    Distance: 5.9014% / 0.05901407
    51.4	TUR_Boncuklu_N
    29.4	TUR_Pinarbasi_HG
    19.2	ITA_Grotta_Continenza_Meso
    
    Target: Iberia_Southeast_CA
    Distance: 4.6457% / 0.04645699
    48.6	TUR_Pinarbasi_HG
    37.0	TUR_Boncuklu_N
    14.4	ITA_Grotta_Continenza_Meso
    
    Target: Iberia_Southwest_CA
    Distance: 4.9644% / 0.04964371
    55.6	TUR_Boncuklu_N
    26.8	TUR_Pinarbasi_HG
    17.6	ITA_Grotta_Continenza_Meso
    
    Target: Iberia_North_MLN
    Distance: 4.8389% / 0.04838895
    46.0	TUR_Pinarbasi_HG
    32.8	TUR_Boncuklu_N
    21.2	ITA_Grotta_Continenza_Meso
    
    Target: Iberia_Southeast_MLN
    Distance: 5.3760% / 0.05376034
    59.6	TUR_Boncuklu_N
    26.4	TUR_Pinarbasi_HG
    14.0	ITA_Grotta_Continenza_Meso
    
    Target: Iberia_MN
    Distance: 4.5840% / 0.04583963
    53.8	TUR_Boncuklu_N
    29.2	TUR_Pinarbasi_HG
    17.0	ITA_Grotta_Continenza_Meso
    
    Target: Iberia_Southwest_MLN
    Distance: 4.4435% / 0.04443508
    46.0	TUR_Boncuklu_N
    38.0	TUR_Pinarbasi_HG
    16.0	ITA_Grotta_Continenza_Meso
    
    Target: Iberia_Southwest_EN
    Distance: 6.2288% / 0.06228813
    56.4	TUR_Boncuklu_N
    35.4	TUR_Pinarbasi_HG
    8.2	ITA_Grotta_Continenza_Meso
    Since the Bronze Age there is a slight increase in North African ancestry (including an outlier). It is not yet widespread, but it is beginning to be seen to a small extent. It will increase further since the domination of Carthage and in particular of Rome.

    Code:
    Target: Iberia_East_IA
    Distance: 4.2531% / 0.04253119
    69.6	TUR_Boncuklu_N
    16.0	UKR_Meso
    4.6	RUS_Sidelkino_HG
    4.4	ITA_Villabruna
    3.6	ITA_Grotta_Continenza_Meso
    1.2	GEO_CHG
    0.6	TUR_Pinarbasi_HG
    
    Target: Iberia_North_IA
    Distance: 4.8629% / 0.04862861
    64.2	TUR_Boncuklu_N
    27.2	UKR_Meso
    6.6	ITA_Villabruna
    1.8	GEO_CHG
    0.2	MAR_Taforalt
    
    Target: Iberia_Menorca_LBA
    Distance: 5.1653% / 0.05165259
    70.6	TUR_Boncuklu_N
    14.2	RUS_Sidelkino_HG
    11.8	ITA_Villabruna
    1.8	UKR_Meso
    1.2	MAR_Taforalt
    0.4	GEO_CHG
    
    Target: Iberia_Southwest_BA_Afr
    Distance: 4.6864% / 0.04686419
    70.2	TUR_Boncuklu_N
    11.8	ITA_Grotta_Continenza_Meso
    7.4	MAR_Taforalt
    7.4	RUS_Sidelkino_HG
    3.2	UKR_Meso
    
    Target: Iberia_Southwest_BA
    Distance: 4.3582% / 0.04358154
    74.0	TUR_Boncuklu_N
    12.6	ITA_Grotta_Continenza_Meso
    7.6	RUS_Sidelkino_HG
    2.4	MAR_Taforalt
    2.2	ITA_Villabruna
    1.2	GEO_CHG
    
    Target: Iberia_Southeast_BA
    Distance: 4.6221% / 0.04622146
    67.2	TUR_Boncuklu_N
    10.2	ITA_Grotta_Continenza_Meso
    9.6	RUS_Sidelkino_HG
    8.4	TUR_Pinarbasi_HG
    4.2	ITA_Villabruna
    0.4	MAR_Taforalt
    
    Target: Iberia_Northeast_BA
    Distance: 3.8089% / 0.03808943
    62.0	TUR_Boncuklu_N
    9.6	TUR_Pinarbasi_HG
    8.8	RUS_Sidelkino_HG
    8.4	ITA_Villabruna
    6.6	UKR_Meso
    4.6	ITA_Grotta_Continenza_Meso
    
    Target: Iberia_North_BA
    Distance: 4.0558% / 0.04055778
    72.0	TUR_Boncuklu_N
    15.2	UKR_Meso
    10.8	ITA_Grotta_Continenza_Meso
    2.0	RUS_Sidelkino_HG
    
    Target: Iberia_Central_BA
    Distance: 3.9601% / 0.03960101
    54.2	TUR_Boncuklu_N
    18.2	TUR_Pinarbasi_HG
    14.0	RUS_Sidelkino_HG
    13.2	ITA_Grotta_Continenza_Meso
    0.4	GEO_CHG
    
    Target: Iberia_Formentera_MBA
    Distance: 4.1728% / 0.04172824
    69.2	TUR_Boncuklu_N
    13.4	RUS_Sidelkino_HG
    9.0	ITA_Grotta_Continenza_Meso
    3.6	TUR_Pinarbasi_HG
    1.8	UKR_Meso
    1.4	MAR_Taforalt
    1.0	GEO_CHG
    0.6	ITA_Villabruna
    
    Target: Iberia_Mallorca_EBA
    Distance: 5.2846% / 0.05284579
    68.0	TUR_Boncuklu_N
    15.2	RUS_Sidelkino_HG
    7.8	ITA_Villabruna
    6.6	UKR_Meso
    2.4	GEO_CHG

  3. #423
    Veteran Member Ajeje Brazorf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Defcon2 View Post
    Spreadsheet?
    Code:
    BEL_GoyetQ116-1,0.043253,-0.005078,0.003017,0.093993,0.045547,0.001952,-0.00517,-0.000692,0.065857,0.024055,0.00341,0.000899,0.009366,-0.022983,0.019137,0.017634,0.011865,0.004561,-0.006034,0.034767,0.026079,0.002473,-0.023664,-0.061695,0.003712
    BRA_Sumidouro_10100BP,0.0500822,-0.2855666,0.111477,0.093993,-0.1026038,-0.019857,-0.2705442,-0.324725,-0.0093672,-0.016802,0.0026632,0.0002098,0.0003866,0.0189094,-0.0044788,0.008035,0.0050846,-0.0003292,-0.0008296,-0.002276,-0.0009484,0.0014094,-0.0056446,-0.003663,0.0032332
    CHL_LosRieles_10900BP,0.044391,-0.304659,0.118416,0.101099,-0.111098,-0.012829,-0.291648,-0.349832,-0.010022,-0.022597,0.005359,-0.003897,-0.004014,0.018854,-0.008822,0.006895,0.008475,0.000507,0.000754,0.008004,0.001248,-0.000989,0.005916,-0.000602,-0.000958
    CHN_Tianyuan,-0.027318,-0.260991,-0.075424,0.071383,0.033545,-0.018407,-0.00799,-0.003,0.040291,0.021322,-0.006333,-0.005995,-0.003568,-0.00523,-0.000407,-0.000663,0.008084,0.002407,-0.001131,0.027263,-0.001747,0.008037,-0.008874,-0.010845,0.011256
    CZE_Vestonice16,0.045529,0.024373,0.032809,0.084303,0.0397,-0.001116,-0.004465,0.001154,0.056653,0.023144,0.007795,-0.01169,0.006392,-0.008533,0.008686,0.012066,-0.005737,0.008488,-0.010684,0.022886,0.036436,0.009027,-0.015159,-0.065672,0.000479
    England_Mesolithic,0.126344,0.110693,0.202891,0.197031,0.157876,0.055778,0.010575,0.03346,0.086514,0.016583,-0.017863,-0.01139,0.014866,-0.001651,0.061481,0.065499,0.002477,0.009882,-0.005531,0.06353,0.116295,0.019661,-0.055954,-0.179664,0.019399
    GEO_CHG,0.091058,0.102568,-0.083344,-0.00323,-0.08617,0.020638,0.024911,-0.001846,-0.128236,-0.074717,-0.006333,0.023979,-0.054856,0.004404,0.026601,-0.03275,0.02386,-0.013429,-0.022249,0.034767,0.033815,-0.007048,0.006532,-0.025787,-0.002036
    Iberia_ElMiron,0.0774,0.044683,0.105217,0.129201,0.11079,0.031236,0.00188,0.006231,0.088559,0.02442,-0.005359,-0.002847,0.008622,-0.013487,0.037459,0.041633,0.002217,0.006968,-0.015209,0.045772,0.063638,0.007914,-0.036481,-0.129054,0.013053
    Iberia_Northeast_UP_Azilian,0.101303,0.076165,0.144814,0.163762,0.136641,0.042112,0.00235,0.032537,0.08999,0.02934,-0.012666,-0.009891,-0.001338,-0.016652,0.047909,0.050119,0.00013,0.006461,-0.008925,0.058528,0.092337,0.014838,-0.052997,-0.158095,0.012095
    IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N,0.0430252,0.0664158,-0.1550722,0.0047158,-0.122669,0.0235384,0.017109,-0.0011998,-0.082546,-0.0544158,-0.0028258,-0.0016186,0.0044896,-0.0062756,0.0316498,0.0561384,-0.0054242,0.0068664,0.0136508,-0.0334162,0.00856,-0.028836,-0.0110678,-0.039331,0.0222254
    IRN_Tepe_Abdul_Hosein_N,0.0421147,0.0639783,-0.1541163,0.0010767,-0.119407,0.0212883,0.0104187,-0.0023077,-0.0809913,-0.057283,-0.002436,-0.002148,0.0040137,-0.0096337,0.0314873,0.0555107,-0.0067363,0.0061233,0.0131143,-0.0351837,0.0062807,-0.0250607,-0.0085453,-0.0374753,0.019958
    ITA_Grotta_Continenza_Meso,0.1206525,0.111708,0.199308,0.202845,0.1715705,0.0612165,0.016686,0.038768,0.1060455,0.028429,-0.0194055,-0.0131885,0.0139745,-0.0119735,0.072746,0.069676,0.002738,0.013999,-0.011376,0.061905,0.1166065,0.009583,-0.061932,-0.195148,0.02401
    ITA_Villabruna,0.121791,0.114755,0.18592,0.184111,0.156337,0.060798,0.020211,0.035998,0.092445,0.018041,-0.016239,-0.016186,0.016947,-0.010046,0.054017,0.067356,0.000782,0.005448,-0.008422,0.053526,0.100073,0.010758,-0.048313,-0.163517,0.01928
    Levant_Natufian,0.020488,0.1431895,-0.0377125,-0.1387295,0.030775,-0.079484,-0.025616,-0.0175375,0.114329,0.002005,0.0332085,-0.0222555,0.076486,0.002133,0.0153365,0.009016,-0.0154505,-0.001014,-0.02206,0.040832,0.001497,0.0001235,-0.003636,-0.0044585,0.006287
    MAR_Taforalt,-0.189857,0.0814452,-0.0242866,-0.085595,0.027636,-0.0552202,-0.0705968,0.0184146,0.155397,0.003499,0.0209156,-0.0318316,0.0747168,-0.0513334,0.0711988,-0.0363032,0.0052676,-0.066106,-0.1424162,0.0389938,-0.0376836,-0.1255322,0.0730118,-0.0137606,0.0164534
    RUS_AfontovaGora3,0.093335,-0.01828,0.083344,0.231592,-0.091402,0.042949,-0.063688,-0.078228,-0.035383,-0.096221,0.047417,-0.010491,0.023637,-0.074454,0.020358,0.02254,-0.012908,0.003801,-0.003394,0.000625,-0.03706,0.015209,0.013927,0.009278,-0.005149
    RUS_Kolyma_Meso,0.043253,-0.337156,0.087492,0.045543,-0.07663,-0.02259,-0.047707,-0.050767,-0.006545,-0.024055,0.005846,-0.006145,0.017988,-0.026424,-0.021851,-0.004243,0.001173,0.012162,0.018101,0.008879,0.004118,-0.023247,0.013311,0.009158,0.009221
    RUS_Kostenki14,0.035285,0.015233,-0.010182,0.063954,0.017849,-0.00251,-0.004465,-0.007846,0.032519,0.007654,0.006658,-0.005545,0.004014,-0.016239,0.013436,0.024794,0.01004,-0.003421,-0.00729,0.015132,0.020713,0.000371,-0.005916,-0.051212,-0.004071
    RUS_MA1,0.078538,-0.025388,0.039598,0.186049,-0.068936,0.04518,-0.048412,-0.056998,-0.019839,-0.069432,0.029879,-0.009591,0.015312,-0.045553,0.014251,0.021082,-0.007693,0,-0.003645,0.000625,-0.027327,0.002844,0.011339,-0.008314,-0.001437
    RUS_Sidelkino_HG,0.118376,0.039606,0.133501,0.195739,0.001846,0.054105,-0.019271,-0.018922,-0.0045,-0.071437,0.010068,-0.012139,0.030475,-0.043351,0.027008,0.02201,-0.002738,-0.003927,-0.008547,0.019509,-0.003868,0.011623,0.005546,-0.022413,-0.001796
    RUS_Sunghir,0.0401228,0.01244,0.0022628,0.0713022,0.030467,-0.0033465,0.0028788,-0.0045,0.0404445,0.0083828,0.011895,-0.0098913,0.0084365,-0.0130397,0.0114685,0.016607,0.0167218,0.0019637,-0.005782,0.029639,0.0263908,0.0058428,-0.0130335,-0.0473262,0.004281
    RUS_UKY,0.037562,-0.332078,0.078441,0.029393,-0.068013,-0.022032,-0.040187,-0.049152,-0.008385,-0.002187,-0.003897,-0.002548,0.004311,-0.021469,-0.003257,-0.005967,-0.002477,0.003547,0.006788,0.010255,-0.003494,-0.004328,0.000493,0.006868,-0.005748
    RUS_Ust_Ishim,-0.050082,-0.11577,-0.090886,0.073644,0.027082,-0.018128,-0.00376,-0.004384,0.0452,0.010387,0.006008,-0.001798,0.000149,-0.003991,0.004614,-0.001724,-0.004955,0.004687,-0.005154,0.015382,0.006613,0.008532,-0.007641,-0.014942,0.007784
    RUS_Yana_UP,0.0278865,-0.0705795,-0.0173475,0.092378,0.0110785,-0.0001395,-0.013396,-0.0119995,0.0341555,-0.000547,0.012829,-0.0025475,0.0051285,-0.015345,0.0118075,0.00305,0.0008475,0.002217,-0.00264,0.0168205,0.0082355,0.008903,-0.0120165,-0.024702,-0.0020955
    SRB_Iron_Gates_HG,0.1291376,0.1195555,0.1804351,0.1764177,0.1302061,0.0535724,0.0146775,0.0338379,0.0629933,-0.0093106,-0.0091675,-0.0163355,0.0247724,-0.0005754,0.0314748,0.0479735,0.0056895,0.0061731,-0.0073134,0.0468408,0.0733025,0.0092065,-0.033075,-0.1215832,0.0104072
    TUR_Boncuklu_N,0.1142784,0.1679686,0.0128974,-0.0709954,0.0554564,-0.0378732,-0.0038072,-0.0037382,0.0340328,0.0773408,0.0096784,0.014747,-0.0301784,0.0010736,-0.0390874,-0.0059402,0.0283978,0.0045102,0.0093016,-0.0092796,-0.009583,0.009645,-0.0096132,-0.0117366,-0.003952
    TUR_Pinarbasi_HG,0.113823,0.166547,0.029793,-0.082688,0.070782,-0.04016,-0.005875,0.001846,0.04745,0.079637,0.006008,0.009142,-0.021407,-0.009358,-0.042073,-0.003713,0.0442,-0.002787,0.008045,-0.001251,-0.013851,0.003339,-0.003451,-0.009278,-0.005628
    UKR_Meso,0.12217,0.073795,0.1387803,0.1935857,0.0323133,0.055778,-0.0036033,0.0011537,0.0083857,-0.0659697,0.0123957,-0.014637,0.0291377,-0.025919,0.02452,0.032617,0.0001303,-0.0015623,-0.004902,0.02397,0.0188,0.009727,0.0003283,-0.0346233,0.0010377
    USA_Ancient_Beringian,0.0432525,-0.3051665,0.0873035,0.081073,-0.0887855,-0.020777,-0.1215005,-0.150686,-0.020657,-0.0218685,0.008038,-0.009816,0.0097375,-0.0141065,-0.009093,0.004508,0.002021,0.0119085,0.003017,0.0139445,-0.005927,0.0059355,0.00721,0.0040965,-0.0006585
    USA_Anzick,0.048944,-0.294504,0.115022,0.094316,-0.100634,-0.011992,-0.259217,-0.314525,-0.008795,-0.025149,0.00406,-3e-04,0.001338,0.007982,-0.011672,0.009812,0.006519,-0.00152,-0.001006,0.005253,-0.000873,0.002226,-0.006655,0.004699,0.002754
    USA_Spirit_Cave_11000BP,0.0557735,-0.3203995,0.119359,0.0964155,-0.1050965,-0.011295,-0.282483,-0.3313705,-0.017998,-0.0196815,-0.005927,0.002997,-0.0010405,0.0285565,-0.009772,-0.00053,0.0017605,-0.00019,0.005531,0.002751,-0.002246,-0.0016695,-0.007025,0.0059645,0.0020355
    WHG,0.118376,0.111708,0.178001,0.184111,0.150182,0.044623,0.010575,0.034383,0.090809,0.028064,-0.014615,-0.016186,0.013974,-0.002752,0.058767,0.069344,0.002738,0.014189,-0.015335,0.054151,0.101446,0.013231,-0.050778,-0.178579,0.019519

  4. #424
    Veteran Member Cristiano viejo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ajeje Brazorf View Post
    6000 years ago and until the Bronze Age there was still no North African admixture in Iberia, but there were some very sporadic migrations (outliers) that did not affect the autosomal population in general. The populations modeled below range from the Neolithic to the early Bronze Age.

    Since the Bronze Age there is a slight increase in North African ancestry (including an outlier). It is not yet widespread, but it is beginning to be seen to a small extent. It will increase further since the domination of Carthage and in particular of Rome.
    Modern European populations show a southwest-northeast gradient of African diversity with its maximum in Spain [1,2]. It is unclear if this gradient is the consequence of ancient prehistoric contacts or, instead, if it is owing to African migrations into Europe during historical times. Based on genome-wide data from modern populations, African admixture has been estimated to around the time of the Muslim expansion into Iberia [2,3]. However, analyses of mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) and Y chromosomes in modern individuals suggest a much older admixture event, possibly dated around 10 0008000 years before present (yBP),
    https://royalsocietypublishing.org/d...rspb.2018.2288
    Espaa para los espaoles! Spain for the Spaniards!

  5. #425
    Veteran Member Ajeje Brazorf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cristiano viejo View Post
    Modern European populations show a southwest-northeast gradient of African diversity with its maximum in Spain [1,2]. It is unclear if this gradient is the consequence of ancient prehistoric contacts or, instead, if it is owing to African migrations into Europe during historical times. Based on genome-wide data from modern populations, African admixture has been estimated to around the time of the Muslim expansion into Iberia [2,3]. However, analyses of mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) and Y chromosomes in modern individuals suggest a much older admixture event, possibly dated around 10 000–8000 years before present (yBP),

    https://royalsocietypublishing.org/d...rspb.2018.2288
    mtDNA and Y-DNA say almost nothing and are uninformative, and indeed, autosomal DNA has shown that that is not the case. That article begins by saying that "they are not sure" if the contact with North Africa is historical or prehistoric, and they are also wrong in estimating it with the expansion of Islam (I have already shown that it is not so and that it was well present during the time of the Romans). Among all the ancient DNA from Iberia, the paternal haplogroups associated with North Africa begin to appear only in that period. They also exist during the Neolithic period, but as I have already said in previous posts, they are outliers.

    Object-ID YFull Date Country
    Ave07 E-L618 -5050 Spain
    I4246 E-V1039* -2251,5 Spain
    I3981 E-M78 500 Spain
    I3579 E-Z1919 500 Spain
    I3583 E-L618 500 Spain
    I12029 E-M35 550 Spain
    I7427 E-V43 950 Spain
    I7500 E-M81 1000 Spain
    I12644 E-M81 1200 Spain
    I12649 E-M81 1200 Spain
    I3807 E-L19 1550 Spain
    Last edited by Ajeje Brazorf; 08-01-2020 at 09:31 AM.

  6. #426
    Veteran Member Rocinante's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ajeje Brazorf View Post
    mtDNA and Y-DNA say almost nothing and are uninformative, and indeed, autosomal DNA has shown that that is not the case. That article begins by saying that "they are not sure" if the contact with North Africa is historical or prehistoric, and they are also wrong in estimating it with the expansion of Islam (I have already shown that it is not so and that it was well present during the time of the Romans). Among all the ancient DNA from Iberia, the paternal haplogroups associated with North Africa begin to appear only in that period. They also exist during the Neolithic period, but as I have already said in previous posts, they are outliers.

    Object-ID YFull Mean Country
    Ave07 E-L618 -5050 Spain
    I4246 E-V1039* -2251,5 Spain
    Tenerife2 E-M78 35 Spain
    Tenerife1 E-M81 35 Spain
    Gomera1 E-M78 332 Spain
    Gomera2 E-M81 332 Spain
    I3981 E-M78 500 Spain
    I3579 E-Z1919 500 Spain
    I3583 E-L618 500 Spain
    I12029 E-M35 550 Spain
    I12031 E-CTS1273* 550 Spain
    Hierro2 E-M78 595 Spain
    Hierro1 E-M81 595 Spain
    gun012.SG E-M81 621 Spain
    gun011.SG E-M81 791,5 Spain
    GranCanaria6 E-M78 870 Spain
    GranCanaria7 E-M78 870 Spain
    GranCanaria8 E-M78 870 Spain
    GranCanaria9 E-M78 870 Spain
    GranCanaria1 E-M81 870 Spain
    GranCanaria2 E-M81 870 Spain
    GranCanaria3 E-M81 870 Spain
    GranCanaria4 E-M81 870 Spain
    GranCanaria5 E-M81 870 Spain
    I7427 E-V43 950 Spain
    I7500 E-M81 1000 Spain
    I7498 E-V13 1050 Spain
    I10853 E-CTS1273* 1071 Spain
    gun002.SG E-M81 1089,5 Spain
    I7457 E-V13 1200 Spain
    I12644 E-M81 1200 Spain
    I12649 E-M81 1200 Spain
    I3807 E-L19 1550 Spain
    They are all guanche paternal lines, can't be considered spanish per se.

  7. #427
    Veteran Member Ajeje Brazorf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocinante View Post
    They are all guanche paternal lines, can't be considered spanish per se.
    Yes, you're right. I'll fix that.

  8. #428
    Veteran Member Gota_type_'s Avatar
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    Basically northafricans 6000 years ago were bereber like, and even today you can see that there are a bunch of light bereber, someone almost passing as European. Obviously they are in the mountains, so they could have preserved their looks better. Look at Zidanne to see how possibly northafricans looked like 6000 years ago. But, most northafricans today are mulatoes (a 10-20% subsaharan) and obviously far from what their ancestors looked like.

    To make all Spaniards (from every corner) having a 4-5% of supossed northafrican blood, it would mean that 4-5000 years ago they were hundred of thousands in every corner of Spain, because there are zones like here in the NW (Galicia), where we have never received inmigration from other parts of Spain and we get the highest """northafrican""" % here. So, why is it here and not in the south, the highest """northafrican"""?? Because it is not northafrican, it is common ancestry.

    The few (how many? 4-5 ancient examples??) examples that give MAR-Taforalt in the past could perfectly be just a few people that really descended from northafricans (I could imagine some groups comming here and living in closed communities for some time), but you cant extrapolate it using 5 ancient examples and generalize and say that those were the averages for all ancient Spaniards. It could very probably happened that those examples were just from certain families related with northafrica and after 3-4 generations they went "extincted". Or not, but you cant extrapolate with 5 ancient examples and say they represent the majority when there are ZERO material culture, remains, archaeology related with northafrica in 100% of prehistoric Spain. ZERO. And here in Galicia we should have "something" since we are the ones with the highest "northafrican", but we have ZERO remains that could be related with northafrica. Zero means zero.

    So, how can someone say that all galicians have northafrican (and the highest in Spain) when there is ZERO northafrican vinculation ever (not even historic relates)?? It is obvious that it is a matter of labels and northafricans are the ones that were 100% caucasoid thousands years ago, and those that labeled "MAR_Taforalt" could have perfectly labeled it as "Iberian Neolithic", but hey, since they found some northafricans with the same segments, instead they prefered to imply that those segments were northafrican. They could have mistaken it. Like when you watch YouTube videos of Mongolians saying that they are part Finnish (because that is what their DNA says), when it is obvious that it is the contrary.

    So, it is just a matter of labels. Other thing would be that we had hundreds of remains from any northafrican culture here, all over Spain, or any historic argument for it. But hey, ZERO. Absolute zero. And other Europeans also score """"northafrican""" in the 0-1%. How do you explain it? For the same reason that it is not northafrican, but basal caucasoid DNA that is conserved better in places like Spain (we are at the corner of Europe so we are more homogeneous than someone from central Europe that have mixed with many other caucasoid groups).


    Quote Originally Posted by Ajeje Brazorf View Post
    Autosomal analysis shows that they were actually very distinct and different from each other. I don't know what you mean by "European Whites", but I think you're referring to the classic mix of EEF/WHG+Steppe/CHG, those formed and expanded in Europe later than 6000 years ago.



    The populations closest to the Phoenicians are obviously certain Levantine groups such as the Samaritans or Lebanese Christians. The Punic samples from Sardinia are very mixed, heterogeneous and very distant from any modern population, they are closer to Jews than to Southern Italians.



    North Africans have never been 80% of the population. 6000 years ago and until the Bronze Age there was still no North African admixture in Iberia, but there were some very sporadic migrations (outliers) that did not affect the autosomal population in general. The populations modeled below range from the Neolithic to the early Bronze Age.

    Code:
    Target: Iberia_Central_CA_Afr
    Distance: 4.4736% / 0.04473573
    46.2	TUR_Boncuklu_N
    29.8	MAR_Taforalt
    17.0	Levant_Natufian
    7.0	CMR_Shum_Laka_8000BP
    
    Target: Iberia_Central_CA_Stp
    Distance: 4.6453% / 0.04645302
    58.0	TUR_Boncuklu_N
    29.2	UKR_Meso
    6.4	GEO_CHG
    6.4	ITA_Grotta_Continenza_Meso
    
    Target: Bell_Beaker_Iberia_C
    Distance: 4.3688% / 0.04368753
    67.4	TUR_Pinarbasi_HG
    21.4	ITA_Grotta_Continenza_Meso
    11.2	TUR_Boncuklu_N
    
    Target: Bell_Beaker_Iberia
    Distance: 4.3513% / 0.04351301
    63.4	TUR_Boncuklu_N
    16.4	ITA_Grotta_Continenza_Meso
    14.8	TUR_Pinarbasi_HG
    5.4	RUS_Sidelkino_HG
    
    Target: Iberia_Northwest_CA_Stp
    Distance: 4.7700% / 0.04769983
    61.4	TUR_Boncuklu_N
    14.6	RUS_Sidelkino_HG
    13.2	UKR_Meso
    8.4	ITA_Grotta_Continenza_Meso
    1.2	GEO_CHG
    1.2	MAR_Taforalt
    
    Target: Iberia_Central_CA
    Distance: 5.0018% / 0.05001790
    48.2	TUR_Pinarbasi_HG
    34.4	TUR_Boncuklu_N
    17.4	ITA_Grotta_Continenza_Meso
    
    Target: Iberia_Northeast_MLN
    Distance: 5.1899% / 0.05189942
    46.2	TUR_Boncuklu_N
    37.8	TUR_Pinarbasi_HG
    16.0	ITA_Grotta_Continenza_Meso
    
    Target: Iberia_Northeast_CA
    Distance: 5.2682% / 0.05268214
    59.0	TUR_Boncuklu_N
    22.8	TUR_Pinarbasi_HG
    18.2	ITA_Grotta_Continenza_Meso
    
    Target: Iberia_North_CA
    Distance: 5.9014% / 0.05901407
    51.4	TUR_Boncuklu_N
    29.4	TUR_Pinarbasi_HG
    19.2	ITA_Grotta_Continenza_Meso
    
    Target: Iberia_Southeast_CA
    Distance: 4.6457% / 0.04645699
    48.6	TUR_Pinarbasi_HG
    37.0	TUR_Boncuklu_N
    14.4	ITA_Grotta_Continenza_Meso
    
    Target: Iberia_Southwest_CA
    Distance: 4.9644% / 0.04964371
    55.6	TUR_Boncuklu_N
    26.8	TUR_Pinarbasi_HG
    17.6	ITA_Grotta_Continenza_Meso
    
    Target: Iberia_North_MLN
    Distance: 4.8389% / 0.04838895
    46.0	TUR_Pinarbasi_HG
    32.8	TUR_Boncuklu_N
    21.2	ITA_Grotta_Continenza_Meso
    
    Target: Iberia_Southeast_MLN
    Distance: 5.3760% / 0.05376034
    59.6	TUR_Boncuklu_N
    26.4	TUR_Pinarbasi_HG
    14.0	ITA_Grotta_Continenza_Meso
    
    Target: Iberia_MN
    Distance: 4.5840% / 0.04583963
    53.8	TUR_Boncuklu_N
    29.2	TUR_Pinarbasi_HG
    17.0	ITA_Grotta_Continenza_Meso
    
    Target: Iberia_Southwest_MLN
    Distance: 4.4435% / 0.04443508
    46.0	TUR_Boncuklu_N
    38.0	TUR_Pinarbasi_HG
    16.0	ITA_Grotta_Continenza_Meso
    
    Target: Iberia_Southwest_EN
    Distance: 6.2288% / 0.06228813
    56.4	TUR_Boncuklu_N
    35.4	TUR_Pinarbasi_HG
    8.2	ITA_Grotta_Continenza_Meso
    Since the Bronze Age there is a slight increase in North African ancestry (including an outlier). It is not yet widespread, but it is beginning to be seen to a small extent. It will increase further since the domination of Carthage and in particular of Rome.

    Code:
    Target: Iberia_East_IA
    Distance: 4.2531% / 0.04253119
    69.6	TUR_Boncuklu_N
    16.0	UKR_Meso
    4.6	RUS_Sidelkino_HG
    4.4	ITA_Villabruna
    3.6	ITA_Grotta_Continenza_Meso
    1.2	GEO_CHG
    0.6	TUR_Pinarbasi_HG
    
    Target: Iberia_North_IA
    Distance: 4.8629% / 0.04862861
    64.2	TUR_Boncuklu_N
    27.2	UKR_Meso
    6.6	ITA_Villabruna
    1.8	GEO_CHG
    0.2	MAR_Taforalt
    
    Target: Iberia_Menorca_LBA
    Distance: 5.1653% / 0.05165259
    70.6	TUR_Boncuklu_N
    14.2	RUS_Sidelkino_HG
    11.8	ITA_Villabruna
    1.8	UKR_Meso
    1.2	MAR_Taforalt
    0.4	GEO_CHG
    
    Target: Iberia_Southwest_BA_Afr
    Distance: 4.6864% / 0.04686419
    70.2	TUR_Boncuklu_N
    11.8	ITA_Grotta_Continenza_Meso
    7.4	MAR_Taforalt
    7.4	RUS_Sidelkino_HG
    3.2	UKR_Meso
    
    Target: Iberia_Southwest_BA
    Distance: 4.3582% / 0.04358154
    74.0	TUR_Boncuklu_N
    12.6	ITA_Grotta_Continenza_Meso
    7.6	RUS_Sidelkino_HG
    2.4	MAR_Taforalt
    2.2	ITA_Villabruna
    1.2	GEO_CHG
    
    Target: Iberia_Southeast_BA
    Distance: 4.6221% / 0.04622146
    67.2	TUR_Boncuklu_N
    10.2	ITA_Grotta_Continenza_Meso
    9.6	RUS_Sidelkino_HG
    8.4	TUR_Pinarbasi_HG
    4.2	ITA_Villabruna
    0.4	MAR_Taforalt
    
    Target: Iberia_Northeast_BA
    Distance: 3.8089% / 0.03808943
    62.0	TUR_Boncuklu_N
    9.6	TUR_Pinarbasi_HG
    8.8	RUS_Sidelkino_HG
    8.4	ITA_Villabruna
    6.6	UKR_Meso
    4.6	ITA_Grotta_Continenza_Meso
    
    Target: Iberia_North_BA
    Distance: 4.0558% / 0.04055778
    72.0	TUR_Boncuklu_N
    15.2	UKR_Meso
    10.8	ITA_Grotta_Continenza_Meso
    2.0	RUS_Sidelkino_HG
    
    Target: Iberia_Central_BA
    Distance: 3.9601% / 0.03960101
    54.2	TUR_Boncuklu_N
    18.2	TUR_Pinarbasi_HG
    14.0	RUS_Sidelkino_HG
    13.2	ITA_Grotta_Continenza_Meso
    0.4	GEO_CHG
    
    Target: Iberia_Formentera_MBA
    Distance: 4.1728% / 0.04172824
    69.2	TUR_Boncuklu_N
    13.4	RUS_Sidelkino_HG
    9.0	ITA_Grotta_Continenza_Meso
    3.6	TUR_Pinarbasi_HG
    1.8	UKR_Meso
    1.4	MAR_Taforalt
    1.0	GEO_CHG
    0.6	ITA_Villabruna
    
    Target: Iberia_Mallorca_EBA
    Distance: 5.2846% / 0.05284579
    68.0	TUR_Boncuklu_N
    15.2	RUS_Sidelkino_HG
    7.8	ITA_Villabruna
    6.6	UKR_Meso
    2.4	GEO_CHG

  9. #429
    Veteran Member Ajeje Brazorf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gota_type_ View Post
    Basically northafricans 6000 years ago were bereber like, and even today you can see that there are a bunch of light bereber, someone almost passing as European. Obviously they are in the mountains, so they could have preserved their looks better. Look at Zidanne to see how possibly northafricans looked like 6000 years ago. But, most northafricans today are mulatoes (a 10-20% subsaharan) and obviously far from what their ancestors looked like.
    Berbers began to form around 3700 BC with the contribution of EEF brought by Europeans (and also other components that I do not mention now). The only two ancient Berber samples we have date back to 2250 BC and already have 9-11% SSA. On average, modern Moroccans and Algerians have about 14%, but in those ancient samples SSA was more of an "East African" type, while in modern ones it is more West African. Surely in Moroccans or modern Berbers there was not only a contribution of sub-Saharan (particularly West African) DNA, but also of Steppe that can partly explain those Berbers with clear traits. These however, obviously, are just a minority and it is not entirely certain that the Berbers in antiquity were more "white" than the modern ones.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gota_type_ View Post
    To make all Spaniards (from every corner) having a 4-5% of supossed northafrican blood, it would mean that 4-5000 years ago they were hundred of thousands in every corner of Spain, because there are zones like here in the NW (Galicia), where we have never received inmigration from other parts of Spain and we get the highest """northafrican""" % here. So, why is it here and not in the south, the highest """northafrican"""?? Because it is not northafrican, it is common ancestry.
    That's not right. The Spanish on average does not have 5% Taforalt (the native North African component), but about 2.1/2.2%. This component varies a lot in the peninsula, there is not much homogeneity from this point of view. However, Berbers have about 25% Taforalt, so a 2.1/2.2% in Spain is equivalent to 8% Berber ancestry. I don't understand what you mean by "common ancestry", the fact that Taforalt does not peak in Andalucia is a cause of recent historical facts, and it is not a proof for a prehistoric origin of that component also because 4000 years ago it was almost absent in Iberia as seen with ancient DNA. The fact that North African peaks in Galicia is due to internal migration within Spain anyway.

    Code:
    Target: Spanish_Asturias
    Distance: 5.9497% / 0.05949668
    62.8	TUR_Boncuklu_N
    24.0	UKR_Meso
    5.2	GEO_CHG
    5.0	MAR_Taforalt
    2.0	SRB_Iron_Gates_HG
    1.0	ITA_Villabruna
    
    Target: Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon
    Distance: 4.7867% / 0.04786721
    61.8	TUR_Boncuklu_N
    26.4	UKR_Meso
    5.6	GEO_CHG
    4.8	MAR_Taforalt
    1.0	Levant_Natufian
    0.4	ITA_Villabruna
    
    Target: Spanish_Extremadura
    Distance: 4.1528% / 0.04152817
    61.2	TUR_Boncuklu_N
    24.2	UKR_Meso
    5.8	GEO_CHG
    4.6	MAR_Taforalt
    1.8	Levant_Natufian
    1.4	IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
    1.0	ITA_Villabruna
    
    Target: Spanish_Galicia
    Distance: 4.4310% / 0.04430979
    61.6	TUR_Boncuklu_N
    26.2	UKR_Meso
    6.0	GEO_CHG
    4.4	MAR_Taforalt
    1.2	Levant_Natufian
    0.6	ITA_Villabruna
    
    Target: Spanish_Andalucia
    Distance: 4.3732% / 0.04373201
    61.2	TUR_Boncuklu_N
    22.8	UKR_Meso
    7.2	GEO_CHG
    3.6	MAR_Taforalt
    2.8	Levant_Natufian
    2.4	ITA_Villabruna
    
    Target: Spanish_Murcia
    Distance: 3.8757% / 0.03875681
    62.6	TUR_Boncuklu_N
    24.6	UKR_Meso
    5.8	GEO_CHG
    3.2	MAR_Taforalt
    2.8	Levant_Natufian
    1.0	ITA_Villabruna
    
    Target: Spanish_Alacant
    Distance: 4.5274% / 0.04527427
    63.6	TUR_Boncuklu_N
    25.0	UKR_Meso
    5.0	GEO_CHG
    2.8	MAR_Taforalt
    2.0	IRN_Tepe_Abdul_Hosein_N
    1.2	ITA_Villabruna
    0.4	Levant_Natufian
    
    Target: Spanish_Cataluna
    Distance: 4.4155% / 0.04415472
    63.4	TUR_Boncuklu_N
    25.8	UKR_Meso
    5.8	GEO_CHG
    2.8	MAR_Taforalt
    2.2	ITA_Villabruna
    
    Target: Spanish_Aragon
    Distance: 5.0006% / 0.05000599
    65.2	TUR_Boncuklu_N
    24.4	UKR_Meso
    5.8	GEO_CHG
    2.4	MAR_Taforalt
    2.2	ITA_Villabruna
    
    Target: Spanish_Valencia
    Distance: 4.5253% / 0.04525315
    62.8	TUR_Boncuklu_N
    24.4	UKR_Meso
    6.4	GEO_CHG
    2.6	ITA_Villabruna
    2.0	MAR_Taforalt
    1.8	Levant_Natufian
    
    Target: Spanish_Baleares
    Distance: 4.1330% / 0.04132976
    65.2	TUR_Boncuklu_N
    26.0	UKR_Meso
    6.6	GEO_CHG
    1.8	MAR_Taforalt
    0.2	IRN_Tepe_Abdul_Hosein_N
    0.2	Levant_Natufian
    
    Target: Spanish_Cantabria
    Distance: 4.7929% / 0.04792920
    65.6	TUR_Boncuklu_N
    26.8	UKR_Meso
    4.4	GEO_CHG
    1.8	MAR_Taforalt
    1.4	ITA_Villabruna
    
    Target: Spanish_Pirineu
    Distance: 4.3246% / 0.04324581
    65.0	TUR_Boncuklu_N
    25.0	UKR_Meso
    5.6	GEO_CHG
    2.6	ITA_Villabruna
    1.8	MAR_Taforalt
    
    Target: Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha
    Distance: 4.5835% / 0.04583526
    63.0	TUR_Boncuklu_N
    24.2	UKR_Meso
    6.4	GEO_CHG
    3.0	Levant_Natufian
    1.8	ITA_Villabruna
    1.6	MAR_Taforalt
    
    Target: Spanish_Castello
    Distance: 4.3322% / 0.04332157
    65.0	TUR_Boncuklu_N
    25.2	UKR_Meso
    5.4	GEO_CHG
    2.4	ITA_Villabruna
    1.2	MAR_Taforalt
    0.8	Levant_Natufian
    
    Target: Spanish_Eivissa
    Distance: 4.4819% / 0.04481871
    62.2	TUR_Boncuklu_N
    25.8	UKR_Meso
    7.2	GEO_CHG
    3.6	Levant_Natufian
    1.2	MAR_Taforalt
    
    Target: Spanish_Girona
    Distance: 4.3630% / 0.04363018
    64.6	TUR_Boncuklu_N
    28.0	UKR_Meso
    5.8	GEO_CHG
    1.2	MAR_Taforalt
    0.4	IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
    
    Target: Spanish_Mallorca
    Distance: 4.1414% / 0.04141363
    63.2	TUR_Boncuklu_N
    26.6	UKR_Meso
    7.8	GEO_CHG
    1.4	Levant_Natufian
    1.0	MAR_Taforalt
    
    Target: Spanish_Menorca
    Distance: 4.0008% / 0.04000810
    63.4	TUR_Boncuklu_N
    23.6	UKR_Meso
    7.8	GEO_CHG
    3.0	Levant_Natufian
    1.2	ITA_Villabruna
    1.0	MAR_Taforalt
    
    Target: Spanish_Navarra
    Distance: 5.5181% / 0.05518075
    64.6	TUR_Boncuklu_N
    13.8	UKR_Meso
    9.4	RUS_Sidelkino_HG
    4.4	GEO_CHG
    4.4	ITA_Villabruna
    2.4	Levant_Natufian
    1.0	MAR_Taforalt
    
    Target: Spanish_Penedes
    Distance: 4.3326% / 0.04332586
    63.0	TUR_Boncuklu_N
    28.4	UKR_Meso
    7.0	GEO_CHG
    1.0	MAR_Taforalt
    0.6	Levant_Natufian
    
    Target: Spanish_Barcelones
    Distance: 4.7532% / 0.04753223
    63.6	TUR_Boncuklu_N
    26.8	UKR_Meso
    6.0	GEO_CHG
    2.0	ITA_Villabruna
    0.8	Levant_Natufian
    0.8	MAR_Taforalt
    
    Target: Spanish_Camp_de_Tarragona
    Distance: 3.9791% / 0.03979134
    61.6	TUR_Boncuklu_N
    28.2	UKR_Meso
    6.0	GEO_CHG
    3.0	Levant_Natufian
    0.8	MAR_Taforalt
    0.4	ITA_Villabruna
    
    Target: Spanish_Peri-Barcelona
    Distance: 4.4320% / 0.04431996
    64.2	TUR_Boncuklu_N
    27.6	UKR_Meso
    5.6	GEO_CHG
    1.6	Levant_Natufian
    0.8	MAR_Taforalt
    0.2	ITA_Villabruna
    
    Target: Spanish_Terres_de_l'Ebre
    Distance: 4.5984% / 0.04598402
    64.0	TUR_Boncuklu_N
    24.2	UKR_Meso
    7.6	GEO_CHG
    2.0	ITA_Villabruna
    1.6	Levant_Natufian
    0.6	MAR_Taforalt
    
    Target: Spanish_Lleida
    Distance: 4.5012% / 0.04501184
    63.4	TUR_Boncuklu_N
    26.8	UKR_Meso
    6.2	GEO_CHG
    2.0	Levant_Natufian
    1.2	ITA_Villabruna
    0.4	MAR_Taforalt
    
    Target: Basque_Spanish
    Distance: 5.7176% / 0.05717580
    67.8	TUR_Boncuklu_N
    14.0	UKR_Meso
    8.6	RUS_Sidelkino_HG
    8.2	ITA_Grotta_Continenza_Meso
    1.4	GEO_CHG
    
    Target: Spanish_Catalunya_Central
    Distance: 4.4470% / 0.04446972
    64.2	TUR_Boncuklu_N
    27.6	UKR_Meso
    5.4	GEO_CHG
    1.8	Levant_Natufian
    1.0	ITA_Villabruna
    
    Target: Spanish_La_Rioja
    Distance: 4.1178% / 0.04117848
    46.8	TUR_Boncuklu_N
    19.2	TUR_Pinarbasi_HG
    18.2	UKR_Meso
    7.2	ITA_Villabruna
    6.0	GEO_CHG
    2.6	Levant_Natufian
    
    Target: Spanish_Pais_Vasco
    Distance: 6.1322% / 0.06132228
    66.0	TUR_Boncuklu_N
    24.6	UKR_Meso
    5.0	ITA_Villabruna
    3.4	GEO_CHG
    1.0	ITA_Grotta_Continenza_Meso
    
    Target: Spanish_Soria
    Distance: 4.6394% / 0.04639419
    37.0	TUR_Boncuklu_N
    26.8	TUR_Pinarbasi_HG
    17.2	RUS_Sidelkino_HG
    6.6	UKR_Meso
    5.8	ITA_Villabruna
    5.4	GEO_CHG
    1.2	IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
    Quote Originally Posted by Gota_type_ View Post
    The few (how many? 4-5 ancient examples??) examples that give MAR-Taforalt in the past could perfectly be just a few people that really descended from northafricans (I could imagine some groups comming here and living in closed communities for some time), but you cant extrapolate it using 5 ancient examples and generalize and say that those were the averages for all ancient Spaniards. It could very probably happened that those examples were just from certain families related with northafrica and after 3-4 generations they went "extincted". Or not, but you cant extrapolate with 5 ancient examples and say they represent the majority when there are ZERO material culture, remains, archaeology related with northafrica in 100% of prehistoric Spain. ZERO. And here in Galicia we should have "something" since we are the ones with the highest "northafrican", but we have ZERO remains that could be related with northafrica. Zero means zero.
    I have never said that ancient outliers with North African ancestry correspond to the average in Spain, precisely because, as the word itself says, they are outliers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gota_type_ View Post
    So, how can someone say that all galicians have northafrican (and the highest in Spain) when there is ZERO northafrican vinculation ever (not even historic relates)?? It is obvious that it is a matter of labels and northafricans are the ones that were 100% caucasoid thousands years ago, and those that labeled "MAR_Taforalt" could have perfectly labeled it as "Iberian Neolithic", but hey, since they found some northafricans with the same segments, instead they prefered to imply that those segments were northafrican. They could have mistaken it. Like when you watch YouTube videos of Mongolians saying that they are part Finnish (because that is what their DNA says), when it is obvious that it is the contrary.
    I don't understand what you're saying in this part. Taforalt is a very different thing than any Iberian in any historical period. I don't think I've ever seen/heard Mongols claiming to have Finnish roots. Mongols however have Nganasan-like admixture, a bit of Steppe, CHG and even EEF that (partly) connects them to Finns or Europeans, but it doesn't mean they have Finnish origins.



    Quote Originally Posted by Gota_type_ View Post
    So, it is just a matter of labels. Other thing would be that we had hundreds of remains from any northafrican culture here, all over Spain, or any historic argument for it. But hey, ZERO. Absolute zero. And other Europeans also score """"northafrican""" in the 0-1%. How do you explain it? For the same reason that it is not northafrican, but basal caucasoid DNA that is conserved better in places like Spain (we are at the corner of Europe so we are more homogeneous than someone from central Europe that have mixed with many other caucasoid groups).
    If they have Taforalt it is for the simple reason that they have North African ancestry, obviously in very, very small quantities.

    Code:
    Target: French_South
    Distance: 4.9167% / 0.04916746
    65.0	TUR_Boncuklu_N
    20.6	UKR_Meso
    6.0	ITA_Villabruna
    4.4	GEO_CHG
    3.6	RUS_Sidelkino_HG
    0.4	MAR_Taforalt
    
    Target: Sardinian
    Distance: 3.4829% / 0.03482919
    90.2	TUR_Boncuklu_N
    7.4	ITA_Grotta_Continenza_Meso
    1.2	MAR_Taforalt
    1.0	RUS_Sidelkino_HG
    0.2	IRN_Tepe_Abdul_Hosein_N

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ajeje Brazorf View Post
    Berbers began to form around 3700 BC with the contribution of EEF brought by Europeans (and also other components that I do not mention now). The only two ancient Berber samples we have date back to 2250 BC and already have 9-11% SSA. On average, modern Moroccans and Algerians have about 14%, but in those ancient samples SSA was more of an "East African" type, while in modern ones it is more West African. Surely in Moroccans or modern Berbers there was not only a contribution of sub-Saharan (particularly West African) DNA, but also of Steppe that can partly explain those Berbers with clear traits. These however, obviously, are just a minority and it is not entirely certain that the Berbers in antiquity were more "white" than the modern ones.



    That's not right. The Spanish on average does not have 5% Taforalt (the native North African component), but about 2.1/2.2%. This component varies a lot in the peninsula, there is not much homogeneity from this point of view. However, Berbers have about 25% Taforalt, so a 2.1/2.2% in Spain is equivalent to 8% Berber ancestry. I don't understand what you mean by "common ancestry", the fact that Taforalt does not peak in Andalucia is a cause of recent historical facts, and it is not a proof for a prehistoric origin of that component also because 4000 years ago it was almost absent in Iberia as seen with ancient DNA. The fact that North African peaks in Galicia is due to internal migration within Spain anyway.

    Code:
    Target: Spanish_Asturias
    Distance: 5.9497% / 0.05949668
    62.8	TUR_Boncuklu_N
    24.0	UKR_Meso
    5.2	GEO_CHG
    5.0	MAR_Taforalt
    2.0	SRB_Iron_Gates_HG
    1.0	ITA_Villabruna
    
    Target: Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon
    Distance: 4.7867% / 0.04786721
    61.8	TUR_Boncuklu_N
    26.4	UKR_Meso
    5.6	GEO_CHG
    4.8	MAR_Taforalt
    1.0	Levant_Natufian
    0.4	ITA_Villabruna
    
    Target: Spanish_Extremadura
    Distance: 4.1528% / 0.04152817
    61.2	TUR_Boncuklu_N
    24.2	UKR_Meso
    5.8	GEO_CHG
    4.6	MAR_Taforalt
    1.8	Levant_Natufian
    1.4	IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
    1.0	ITA_Villabruna
    
    Target: Spanish_Galicia
    Distance: 4.4310% / 0.04430979
    61.6	TUR_Boncuklu_N
    26.2	UKR_Meso
    6.0	GEO_CHG
    4.4	MAR_Taforalt
    1.2	Levant_Natufian
    0.6	ITA_Villabruna
    
    Target: Spanish_Andalucia
    Distance: 4.3732% / 0.04373201
    61.2	TUR_Boncuklu_N
    22.8	UKR_Meso
    7.2	GEO_CHG
    3.6	MAR_Taforalt
    2.8	Levant_Natufian
    2.4	ITA_Villabruna
    
    Target: Spanish_Murcia
    Distance: 3.8757% / 0.03875681
    62.6	TUR_Boncuklu_N
    24.6	UKR_Meso
    5.8	GEO_CHG
    3.2	MAR_Taforalt
    2.8	Levant_Natufian
    1.0	ITA_Villabruna
    
    Target: Spanish_Alacant
    Distance: 4.5274% / 0.04527427
    63.6	TUR_Boncuklu_N
    25.0	UKR_Meso
    5.0	GEO_CHG
    2.8	MAR_Taforalt
    2.0	IRN_Tepe_Abdul_Hosein_N
    1.2	ITA_Villabruna
    0.4	Levant_Natufian
    
    Target: Spanish_Cataluna
    Distance: 4.4155% / 0.04415472
    63.4	TUR_Boncuklu_N
    25.8	UKR_Meso
    5.8	GEO_CHG
    2.8	MAR_Taforalt
    2.2	ITA_Villabruna
    
    Target: Spanish_Aragon
    Distance: 5.0006% / 0.05000599
    65.2	TUR_Boncuklu_N
    24.4	UKR_Meso
    5.8	GEO_CHG
    2.4	MAR_Taforalt
    2.2	ITA_Villabruna
    
    Target: Spanish_Valencia
    Distance: 4.5253% / 0.04525315
    62.8	TUR_Boncuklu_N
    24.4	UKR_Meso
    6.4	GEO_CHG
    2.6	ITA_Villabruna
    2.0	MAR_Taforalt
    1.8	Levant_Natufian
    
    Target: Spanish_Baleares
    Distance: 4.1330% / 0.04132976
    65.2	TUR_Boncuklu_N
    26.0	UKR_Meso
    6.6	GEO_CHG
    1.8	MAR_Taforalt
    0.2	IRN_Tepe_Abdul_Hosein_N
    0.2	Levant_Natufian
    
    Target: Spanish_Cantabria
    Distance: 4.7929% / 0.04792920
    65.6	TUR_Boncuklu_N
    26.8	UKR_Meso
    4.4	GEO_CHG
    1.8	MAR_Taforalt
    1.4	ITA_Villabruna
    
    Target: Spanish_Pirineu
    Distance: 4.3246% / 0.04324581
    65.0	TUR_Boncuklu_N
    25.0	UKR_Meso
    5.6	GEO_CHG
    2.6	ITA_Villabruna
    1.8	MAR_Taforalt
    
    Target: Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha
    Distance: 4.5835% / 0.04583526
    63.0	TUR_Boncuklu_N
    24.2	UKR_Meso
    6.4	GEO_CHG
    3.0	Levant_Natufian
    1.8	ITA_Villabruna
    1.6	MAR_Taforalt
    
    Target: Spanish_Castello
    Distance: 4.3322% / 0.04332157
    65.0	TUR_Boncuklu_N
    25.2	UKR_Meso
    5.4	GEO_CHG
    2.4	ITA_Villabruna
    1.2	MAR_Taforalt
    0.8	Levant_Natufian
    
    Target: Spanish_Eivissa
    Distance: 4.4819% / 0.04481871
    62.2	TUR_Boncuklu_N
    25.8	UKR_Meso
    7.2	GEO_CHG
    3.6	Levant_Natufian
    1.2	MAR_Taforalt
    
    Target: Spanish_Girona
    Distance: 4.3630% / 0.04363018
    64.6	TUR_Boncuklu_N
    28.0	UKR_Meso
    5.8	GEO_CHG
    1.2	MAR_Taforalt
    0.4	IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
    
    Target: Spanish_Mallorca
    Distance: 4.1414% / 0.04141363
    63.2	TUR_Boncuklu_N
    26.6	UKR_Meso
    7.8	GEO_CHG
    1.4	Levant_Natufian
    1.0	MAR_Taforalt
    
    Target: Spanish_Menorca
    Distance: 4.0008% / 0.04000810
    63.4	TUR_Boncuklu_N
    23.6	UKR_Meso
    7.8	GEO_CHG
    3.0	Levant_Natufian
    1.2	ITA_Villabruna
    1.0	MAR_Taforalt
    
    Target: Spanish_Navarra
    Distance: 5.5181% / 0.05518075
    64.6	TUR_Boncuklu_N
    13.8	UKR_Meso
    9.4	RUS_Sidelkino_HG
    4.4	GEO_CHG
    4.4	ITA_Villabruna
    2.4	Levant_Natufian
    1.0	MAR_Taforalt
    
    Target: Spanish_Penedes
    Distance: 4.3326% / 0.04332586
    63.0	TUR_Boncuklu_N
    28.4	UKR_Meso
    7.0	GEO_CHG
    1.0	MAR_Taforalt
    0.6	Levant_Natufian
    
    Target: Spanish_Barcelones
    Distance: 4.7532% / 0.04753223
    63.6	TUR_Boncuklu_N
    26.8	UKR_Meso
    6.0	GEO_CHG
    2.0	ITA_Villabruna
    0.8	Levant_Natufian
    0.8	MAR_Taforalt
    
    Target: Spanish_Camp_de_Tarragona
    Distance: 3.9791% / 0.03979134
    61.6	TUR_Boncuklu_N
    28.2	UKR_Meso
    6.0	GEO_CHG
    3.0	Levant_Natufian
    0.8	MAR_Taforalt
    0.4	ITA_Villabruna
    
    Target: Spanish_Peri-Barcelona
    Distance: 4.4320% / 0.04431996
    64.2	TUR_Boncuklu_N
    27.6	UKR_Meso
    5.6	GEO_CHG
    1.6	Levant_Natufian
    0.8	MAR_Taforalt
    0.2	ITA_Villabruna
    
    Target: Spanish_Terres_de_l'Ebre
    Distance: 4.5984% / 0.04598402
    64.0	TUR_Boncuklu_N
    24.2	UKR_Meso
    7.6	GEO_CHG
    2.0	ITA_Villabruna
    1.6	Levant_Natufian
    0.6	MAR_Taforalt
    
    Target: Spanish_Lleida
    Distance: 4.5012% / 0.04501184
    63.4	TUR_Boncuklu_N
    26.8	UKR_Meso
    6.2	GEO_CHG
    2.0	Levant_Natufian
    1.2	ITA_Villabruna
    0.4	MAR_Taforalt
    
    Target: Basque_Spanish
    Distance: 5.7176% / 0.05717580
    67.8	TUR_Boncuklu_N
    14.0	UKR_Meso
    8.6	RUS_Sidelkino_HG
    8.2	ITA_Grotta_Continenza_Meso
    1.4	GEO_CHG
    
    Target: Spanish_Catalunya_Central
    Distance: 4.4470% / 0.04446972
    64.2	TUR_Boncuklu_N
    27.6	UKR_Meso
    5.4	GEO_CHG
    1.8	Levant_Natufian
    1.0	ITA_Villabruna
    
    Target: Spanish_La_Rioja
    Distance: 4.1178% / 0.04117848
    46.8	TUR_Boncuklu_N
    19.2	TUR_Pinarbasi_HG
    18.2	UKR_Meso
    7.2	ITA_Villabruna
    6.0	GEO_CHG
    2.6	Levant_Natufian
    
    Target: Spanish_Pais_Vasco
    Distance: 6.1322% / 0.06132228
    66.0	TUR_Boncuklu_N
    24.6	UKR_Meso
    5.0	ITA_Villabruna
    3.4	GEO_CHG
    1.0	ITA_Grotta_Continenza_Meso
    
    Target: Spanish_Soria
    Distance: 4.6394% / 0.04639419
    37.0	TUR_Boncuklu_N
    26.8	TUR_Pinarbasi_HG
    17.2	RUS_Sidelkino_HG
    6.6	UKR_Meso
    5.8	ITA_Villabruna
    5.4	GEO_CHG
    1.2	IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N


    I have never said that ancient outliers with North African ancestry correspond to the average in Spain, precisely because, as the word itself says, they are outliers.



    I don't understand what you're saying in this part. Taforalt is a very different thing than any Iberian in any historical period. I don't think I've ever seen/heard Mongols claiming to have Finnish roots. Mongols however have Nganasan-like admixture, a bit of Steppe, CHG and even EEF that (partly) connects them to Finns or Europeans, but it doesn't mean they have Finnish origins.



    If they have Taforalt it is for the simple reason that they have North African ancestry, obviously in very, very small quantities.

    Code:
    Target: French_South
    Distance: 4.9167% / 0.04916746
    65.0	TUR_Boncuklu_N
    20.6	UKR_Meso
    6.0	ITA_Villabruna
    4.4	GEO_CHG
    3.6	RUS_Sidelkino_HG
    0.4	MAR_Taforalt
    
    Target: Sardinian
    Distance: 3.4829% / 0.03482919
    90.2	TUR_Boncuklu_N
    7.4	ITA_Grotta_Continenza_Meso
    1.2	MAR_Taforalt
    1.0	RUS_Sidelkino_HG
    0.2	IRN_Tepe_Abdul_Hosein_N
    Gota said that the ~5% of iberomaurusian was in Galicia, actually the national average is ~4%, and it would be the only thing that could be considered north african ancestry. All the EEF in iberians is european just like the frenchs, Italians, germans, etc. It doesn't really matter if some berbers brought back some of that component to Iberia, which I don't think it would be the case.

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